Lola Clyde, 1976-10-12, Interview #7 - MP3 Recording

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SAM SCHARGER: Not yet.

LOLA GAMBLE CLYDE: Oh, it's just like going into a museum. One thing he has on the wall is real cute. It's a little team of pigs hitched up to a little wagon and they're driving it- and a man named Huff is driving it. And Hirff came from Grangeville. They took it back to the World Fair at Chicago. They took it down to thejttic Yukon Exhibition in ?909 and won aprize. And there they are and he's got that picture hanging there on the wall. And there's a lot of other old-time pictures. And then in it, are many replicas of old-time things. And he really knows an aw ful lot of history and stuff. You'll just love Uncle Bill.

SS: Well, let me ask you about social life wanted to know one thing about the women in those days; I've had the impression that alot of them were not in the best of health. That there was a lot of sick ness among the women who were here in the early days, and there was all over the country in the early 1900's. Do you find that to have been so? When you think about it?

LGC: Yes, I think so too, that it seemed to be one of the great subjects of conversation- was the ill health that they all had. And part of it was that they didn't have enough outside interests, I think, and then every ache and pain was magnified, and as they used to say, "She feels every pain," you know, and maybe some of it was that. But in those days they had children one right after the other, you know, and be ten children in ten years, and that's pretty hard on women's health. And then there was lots of hard work required of the early pioneer wo men, and I imagine their health wasn't very good. And doctors were very inadequate. They had so few of them. And in the very early days most of the children were ushered into the world by the help of the mid wife and that sort of thing.

SS: So really, the childbearing was really hard on them.

LGC: Yes, it was hard on them.

SS: Took it's toll physically.

LGC: Yes, it did. It took it's toll physically. That's right.

SS: Is that because they didn't know enough about- at the time- about how to take care of that with the least trouble?

LGC: Well, I suppose so. And many babies were born without much medical attention- without much prenatal care- and very little postnatal care. And doctors were few and far between.

SS: What kind of an effect, say, would that have on the mothers to have not had, you know, a doctor's care? What would that do to a would that just mean they wouldn't get strong- become more weak?

LGC: That's right. And some of them died in childbirth, if there were com plications developed. Mothers died in childbirth because they didn't have medical assistance at the time.

SS: Was that fairly common up here, for example?

LGC: Well, I think as a little child, I remember two of our neighbor wo men dying in childbirth. And so that was quite a—

SS: The large sized family, is one, too. I've noticed that it seems like the early families were very large. Werent they?

LGC: Yes, that's right.

SS: But the way my reading indicates that birth control was not unknown during that period of time, so that it could have been practiced per haps if families had wanted to. Didn't they have any knowledge of birth control?

LGC: Well, I don't know. A lot of them had the feeling that lots of children was lots of security. And a lot of them their religion kept them from practicing what they did know. And I just wouldn't be able to answer; I don't know.

Well, when you talk, you know, the security of the children- was that the idea that-from what people have said- was that the idea that a big family- you'd have alot of people to help on the farm? Was that the thinking behind it?

Well, it could have been, although I've heard some of them say: One father can take care of twelve sons; the twelve sons can't take care of one father. And I think that was quite true, too. Each of them grew up and went on their own, you know merry way. And Idon't know that there was so much taking care of the old folks went on as could have. But I think religion entered into a lot of their thinking. Not necessarily because they were Catholics, but many of the religions taught that the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, and this is just the will of the Lord that I'm given these children.

SS: You mean the Protestant denominations?

LGC: It's true. Many of the Protestant people felt that way that these were gifts straight from heaven and they accepted them as that, you know.

SS: Okay, but then what about- we talked some before about women being a chattel and that kind of stuff.

LGC: Yes.

SS: And being in almost servitude, because of all they had to do for their husband.

LGC: Yes.

SS: Now, wouldn't it stand to reason that the only way that they could be free of that would be if they didn't have big families? I mean, to have a big family was to accept that.

That's right. Well, Ijust don't know what the feeling behind all that was with the early day women, but lots of them prided themselves: I can remember one old lady saying that she'd had sixteen children and she lived to raise eight of 'em!

SS: What did that mean? She lost the other eight?

LGC: Yes, she lost the other eight.

SS: In childbirth or when they were babies?

LGC: Small ones, there were different epidemics. Moscow went through the black diphtheria scourge here a couple of times. And at one time some of the early histories report that half the children in the town of Moscow died with black diphtheria.

SS: Oh, really?

LGC: Uh-huh.

SS: i didn't know that it was that bad.

LGC: Yes, it was that bad.

SS: When do you think about when would that have been?

Oh, it would be in the very early- in the early '70's. 1877, maybe and '78, along through there they had a bad epidemic of black diphtheria. Well, thinking about this- what women accepted for their lives, it sounds to me like- Well, what I'm wondering, do you think that the wo men then questioned whether they should have an alternative to just being homemakers and raising afamily? Or did that only come later? That that was questioned.

LGC: Well,-

SS: You know what I mean.

LGC: Yes, I know what you mean.

SS: Is that the only way they thought to live at the time? Well, Ican only answe^from my own mother's viewpoint. My mother was an educated woman and she had taught- she taught in the first girls' school in Canada in the Angela College of Victoria, B. C. And when she moved to this pioneer settlement, she wanted my father to let her go out and teach school, and oh, that was against the principles of the old country. The man made the living; it was his privilege and his right and he wouldn't let her go. But, I've often heard her say that she wished that my father had let her go and teach school at the same time because they could have used the money so well. And nearly all of the farm women had their cows and they would milk them and sell the cream. And they got most of the egg money, and that was considered their money that they could do as they pleased. But the grain, the crop had to go in^or paying for land or machinery or for debts, but the egg and cream money, the women could have that.

SS: But they spent it not on themselves?

LGC: No, they spent it on the children and on food. Most of it went for the children and on food for the table.

So, in other words, she was really exclusively in control of the chil dren and the food.

Yes, that's right. That was her calling.

What about the household furnishings and the furniture and all that, was that all her's, too?

Well,- and once again, Ican hardly answer it. The men did most of this buying, as I remember it. The Scandinavian men, especially. But some of them took great pride in their houses and buying a piano for their daughters. That was the epitome of gracious living, was to be able to get apiano and give the girls music lessons, when Iwas alit tle child. And there was some of the families that could do that. So, say somejthings like sofas and chairs and that sort of thing- would that usually be the husband or wife who would make-

Well most of the purchases, most of the major purchases, your purchases like that much money, would be made by the man. The men would decide when they would get it and some of them took pride in having well fur nished houses, and that sort of thing, you know.

Well, Iknow these sorts of things are pretty imponderable, they're difficult to figure; But I'm asking you some of these things because of the reading that I've done now, when we're looking at women's his tory, and history of the nineteenth century. These are the kind of questions that they're asking. Why was it this way? And how was it? So, they're trying to generalize on what- you know- on some of these things. But for other women, maybe sometimes your mother. Was your mother unusual in her interest in getting out of the home to teach? Do you think that it was common and that most women would have if they could have?

Well, yes, I think if they had been fitted; but^so few were educated in those days, you know, there were so few trained, I think most of them would have tried, because I remember in later years when they opened the pea picking factory and Moscow became the pea capital of the world and women could go to town and get jobs in the winter picking out the rogue peas from the other peas. Oh, lots of the women went out and got jobs and would drive to town every day to pick peas. And that gave them a feeling of independence and they got money for doing it. And many of the married women who's Children were then in school would even get a job in town to bring in a little extra money.

SS: They'd come from the rural areas. They'd come from Troy and further?

LGC: Yes, oh, yes, they came from Troy and come into Moscow to pick peas.

SS: When did that start? In the '30's or before?

Maybe after 1925, people started picking peas, because Moscow then had established a good market for green peas.

Well, what about the dealings of women teachers in the schools? In the early days Ihad heard that it was largely men. Is that true? Largely men teachers in the rural schools?

Well, there were some, yes, but right around here that was avery well accepted position for the women- for the girls, they would grow up to be teachers.

But, now, I'm trying to figure when- In the early_ pioneering, in the '80's, say, were there women teachers back that early? In large num bers?

No, I think that most of the early teachers were men teachers. So your mother would probably have been unusual as ateacher at that time?

Yes, that's right, because they weren't trained for it. No, that's right. Most of them were men teachers. And it wasn't until maybe in the 'Id's that we saw women coming into that. It was a highly respec ted job for the young girls to grow up to be teachers, or they could be nurses. That was a highly respected job.

Do you think that it started then because that's when the girls were able to go to Lewiston Normal and the University?

Yes, Ithink so. Yes, because in 1890- in came the Lewiston Nor mal. And that was a fine opportunity for the young girls to go on and get educations.

SS: And they were going there right away to teach?

LGC: Oh, yes. Yes, as soon as the Lewiston Normal started. We had no school of education at the University of Idaho when it first opened.

SS: Oh, there wasn't?

No, Must the liberal arts. But girls did go there. But not with idea of becoming teachers so much. But after Lewiston Normal star ted, that was to train teachers and they did go down there. And that was an ambition with many of them was to go on to school; those that liked school.

Well, then, do you think- would it be fair to say that probably the large numbers- or the influx of women into rural school teaching star ted when Lewiston Normal started? Or do you think it was started be fore?

LGC: I think it started with Lewiston Normal.

SS: Before that they wouldn't have really had a chance.

LGC: They wouldn't have had any place to get it. And for many years, the student nurses had to go to Spokane, to the hospitals there to get nur se's training. They would go up to Sacred Heart and get training there. But with the coming of Lewiston Normal, started turning out our own rural teachers.

SS: Were they going to Cheney before Lewiston Normal for teaching? I've heard of your contemporaries did go to Cheney.

LGC: Oh, yes, many of them went to Cheney. And many of them from right around here went to Cheney. Yes, Cheney was established- Cheney Normal was established ahead of Lewiston

SS: Somewhat earlier?

LGC: Yes, somewhat earlier.

SS: Then it seems to me that the problem, in a way, was pushed back fur ther, because once they were teaching in the rural schools then a young woman could teach until she married. Right?

LGC: Yes.

SS: And that was built into the work.

LGC: Yes.

SS: How did people feel about that? You told me some of}that you didn't mind stopping teaching; but do you think that at the time, that after this freedom of being a teacher, making your own money and making your own way, that most of the women didn't mind to just give that all up?

LGC: Well, I think a lot of them didn't give it up. Alot of them went on teaching after they were married until the Depression hit, and then married women couldn't get jobs, because they felt that the single women needed the jobs or man who was head of a family should have the job. So married women weren't allowed to teach, during the Depression No one would hire them..

SS: But before that, people- teachers have told me that in the rural coun try, that not only was it custom that they stop teaching when they mar ried, but in a lot of school districts they had it in the contract, that they couldn't be, married

LGC: Yes, that's right. That's true..

SS: That didn't seem like it gave much choice.

LGC: That didn't give them much choice, did it? Well, they had to be real ly in love with the man they married, you know, to give up their in dependence.

SS: You mean, it encouraged romantic marriage?

LGC: That's right. It encouraged it, you know.

SS: But in terms of- just from the point of view of fairness, it seems that that meant for most of these people they had a choice between career and marriage.

LGC: That's right. That's about the way it has been you know, through the years.

SS: I'm just wondering if they had that as a rule in the rural schools in so many of them that you couldn't be married and teach. To give the the person the option, would seem alot fairer than to say, "You can't teach, if you're married."

LGC: Well, many of the rural schools did hire married women up until the time of the Depression. Yes, many of them did. I knew quite a few married women who taught around Moscow in the immediate vicinity. And they went on teaching and that sort of thing. But after the Depression hit, then most of the schools wouldn't hire a married woman, because they felt that they should save the job for some single woman or for some head of a family.

SS: Did most of these woman that did teach quit teaching to raise their family and then come back to teaching. I mean were they older women?

LGC: Yes, I think so. I think most of them were older women or women with out children or women with just one child. They weren't women with a lot of children, and a lot of household responsibility. I think that was pretty well established.

SS: How old would the youngest child have to be before a woman would feel comfortable with going back to teaching?

LGC: Well, I think it would have to be of school age and then they could take the child with them to school or put them in school someplace. I think that was the way most of them did, as I remember.

SS: It does to seem to me, for instance with yourself with the choice that you made to marry; did you find it difficult- somewhat difficult- to make the adjustment of being totally at home instead of being out in

LGC: Well,]l had avery wonderful, understanding, lenient husband. Very indulgent husband. And he just said, "Lola, you just go and do your thing and I'll do my thing." And he let me sit on school boards. And one time.I was never a bored farmwife, I just sat on all the boards in town. And at one time I was on fourteen different boards Latah County and the town of Moscow. School boards,.library boards, Red Cross, Gritman Hospital, Health, County Health Unit.

SS: Didn't you find it borjf\o sit on all those boards?

LGC: No, I just had fun.

SS: How about your younger years, when you were first married?

LGC: When I was first married, I'll tell you, Iwas just so busy. We had a great depression hit and we were down to twenty-eight cents, you know and I had about seventeen hired men to cook for and four little child ren, one right after the other. Four children all under four years of age. I didn't have time for any regrets or any thing else. Iwas just too busy trying to keep food on the table for everybody.

Let's talk a little bit about unmarried women. I'm curious to know what you think- It seems from what I've read, and some of what I've seen, people who didn't marry. Now, do you feel that- how would you explain why a lot of people didn't marry in those days. It seems m some ways there was a lot of that back in those days of people deciding not to. Was it that the women were too educated for the men who were around or something?

Well, the right man just hadn't come along.K Put it that way. And some were unsatisfied with the kind of men they met, you know. Of pressure on young women to marry.

Yes, I think so, too. I think the mothers were always afraid the girls would be old maids, you know. They'd urge them to get out and meet young people and that sort of thing, you know. That that was the ex pected thing to do. And all the mothers thought their daughters should be the belle of the ball, you know and follow along in the way they had done. I think that there was that feeling among them.

SS: But talking about the choice between marriage and career; do you think that some of the women did make a choice for a job and independence, freedom-—

LGC: Yes, I think that's right. I think that there were many of the highly intelligent girls didn't marry because they did like their work and their jobs and they would have to give up too much. I think. I think that's true.

SS: Well, it seemed to me that with the— would you say that there was a generally high level of education among the girls than the boys?

LGC: Yes, I think so. Their services weren't needed so badly on the farm. The girls. The^oys were needed so badly farming in the rural communi ties. And they'd always figure, well, when this boy got out of schoolsometimes that was just right out of the eighth grade- why, we'll buy another piece of land and start him up farming. And that went on a lot and then in the very, very, early times the boys stayed home and helped their fathers in the spring and in the fall and maybe in the very early days, it would just be a couple of months in the summer they had school, and later on, it was just a few months in the winter that the older boys were allowed to go to school. And then they couldn't be working out in the fields and so on so they'd go to school for a little while.

SS: So, the girls because they weren't needed-

LGC: That's right.

SS: Had the freedom to go

Yes, the girls had more freedom to go to school. Yes, I think that's true.

SS: Now, an educated young woman, could she easily find herself in a po sition where there wasn't anybody around who was her intellectual- who could be her companion, that way?

Yes, Ithink so. Ithink that's right. Ithink they educated them selves out of the market. Ithink sometimes that happened. Ithink oftenlthat happened.

Do you think men tended to be afraid of brainy women? Or not like brainy women?

Yes, that's right. Ithink that that's true, yes. Ithink most of them -"Beware of these schoolmarms, they'll boss you around the rest of your life!" Although in the early days, the school marms were geenrally quite the belles of the balls. They set the social pace. What the new teacher wore and what she did was very much the pattern for the rest of the girls of the community.

SS: Really? Of the young wives, too?

Yes, of the young wives, too. They'd watch what kind of hatband what kind of dresses the new schoolteacher was wearing and that sort of was a pacesetter.

Why did she find herself in that position, that she was the pacesetter? Was it being from?

Yes, a lot of them came out from the towns to^he rural communities. And they had alittle more money of their own and they could buy things like that. And they were expected to be well dressed and that sort of thing when they taught school.

Coming from Lewiston they might have been closer to the fashion world. That's right. That's right. They came up from the big town of Lewiston and they might know what the latest styles were.

Talking of styles; were the styles changing in those days? ^mean were they different from year to year or two years?

A little bit, quite a little bit, yes. They'd wear high buttoned shoes sometimes and sometimes it'd be oxfords. Sometimes- that sort of thing, yes. Yes, the styles changed. I can remember my mother wearing the big leg-o£~mutton sleeves, you know, on her coats. And then I re member the Mother Hubbards for the kitchen wear. And later on it was stylish to have high waists and low waists, and even the little girls in school would pattern after what the teachers had.

SS: Did people actually have a little bit of extra money clinking around that they could follow the fashions, too?

LGC: Well, sometimes, you know. Sometimes the women got a little extra cream check, they would buy a little something.

SS: Or if you were buying maybe a new dress, you'd try to get —

LGC: Yes.

SS: Well, I heard that everybody had a black dress. That black was the big thing.

LGC: Everybody had a black silk dress and you had that to wear to church on Sunday. And it was quite common, uh-huh. A nice black silk dress.

SS: Well, the average farmwife at that time, like your mother and the wo men of her generation; how many dresses would they own?

LGC: Well, just about one good one, would be all.

SS: And that would be black?

LGC: Yes, uh-huh. Nice black silk one to wear to church or a funeral or to a wedding. They were few and far between, you know. But they weren't big invitational affairs^like they are now, or like they were for a while. They generally had one good decent dress, they called it, for church and funerals. And Mother Hubbards the rest of the time,largely.

SS: The Mother Hubbards were—?

LGC: Kind of loose fitting dresses.

SS: — wear, as not being very healthy-

LGC: And the corsets.

SS: Was that kind of a constricting and dumb idea? Or what was the—?

LGC: Well, these waspwaists, you know, that was going a little too far, I say. This cinching them in you know. that could be very uncomfortable any way. I don't know that it really hurt any of their organs, but I'd think it would be very, very uncomfortable. And I think that helped liberate women when they threw away the corsets.

SS: Well, when did that happen? Was corset wearing- were tight corsets worn fairly late?

LGC: Yes, I think so. I think they were wearing them up in^the First World War anyway.

SS: Really?

LGC: Yes, they were cinching 'em up tight and wearing- and getting the wasp waists. The fashions of the pre-World War I days all show little small waits, you know and that was the sign of great elegance and beauty. Regardless of how tight they had to cinch 'em, you know.

SS: You say, wasp waist? Why was that?

LGC: Well, you know how a wasps are? Hornets, they have little tiny- in the middle- their middle is very small, so that's a wasp.

SS: That's what they called them?

LGC: Uh-huh. So they had to have a wasp waist. They had to pinch 'em in in the middle and then they could be big above, and big hips, that was alright, but right around the middle they had to have a wasp waist.

SS: Was this something that all classes did? Would relatively working class families do the same thing?

LGC: Well, a lot of the women who really went out, you know and worked in the fields- and lots of the early women did- they would go out and shock the bundles and pitch hay right along with their menfolks- I don't think they did it. No. It was more the pseudosociety ladies that went in for the wasp waists. And, of course, pregnant women would be pretty hard to come by. They just wore the Mother Hubbards and covered all defects.

SS: Well, the farm families- in the average farm family, would they wear the tight waists.

LGC: Oh, I think not, no, most of the farm women were too busy getting their cows milked and the chickens taken care of.

SS: This was a town.. .

LGC: Yes, more of the middleclass town ladies that had to follow along a little with the society trends. Most of the farm women were just really pretty busy mailking cows and raising gardens and getting the fruit canned for winter.

SS: Was there a pretty clear distinct line, do you think, between the rural farm women and the city people, who were really middleclass?

LGC: Yes, yes, I think so. I think that's right, uh-huh.

SS: To talk about the differences between them; would the town middleclass ladies be much more involved in the social life?

LGC: Oh, yes, much, more, yes. They had their own bridge parties and their party going and often in the early days around Moscow they would hire— they could get hired help very cheap— and they would hire the nice lit tle girls from off the farms that were growing up, sixteen and seven teen year old girls, and they would work in these society homes of Mos cow and it was part of their training. They learned how to make fancy desserts and how to cook and how to serve.

SS: would be, where we could say, these people were, you know and other people are working-class? And would that be the sign of a middle class family if they had a girl working in the home?

LGC: Yes, oh, yes. Lots of the middle class had hired girls that came in and worked. And of course, the— I forget what they called themthey called them the "upper tens". The "upper tens" you know, they were- they would be like the McConnells, you know, and folks like that. They had servant quarters even. A little special room where the serving girls slept. And these girls helped take care of the chil dren and helped prepare the meals. And they learned many arts and many skills cooking that their parents couldn't teach them because they didn't have the abundance of extra fancy food and different things on the farms that wa$ available in town.

SS: But there would be a lot of other middle class families that would al so have girls helping, like besides, say, the "upper ten"?

LGC: Yes, oh, yes. There were middle class families, too, that would get girls, and many of the farm women too would get a young neighboring girl to come and help in the harvest time when they had lots of extra men. Just standard practice that one neighbor's young girls would go over and help out the other neighbors when they were harvesting and so on. Help take care of the children.

SS: But they wouldn't be living in the year around?

LGC: No, it wouldn't be year around in the country, no, that was largely a city way- or at least the town of Moscow way- you went to town and stayed in the home there.

SS: So it would only be during harvest, the busiest time?

LGC: Yes, that the farm women had help. That's right. Yes. Right in the harvest time.

SS: Would it be for maybe a month?

LGC: Yeah, a month or six weeks, something like that while they got the threshing and that sort of thing done. The binding and threshing in those days.

SS: So in other words, to really spot a middle class family at that time you could say that they'd be likely to have a girl living in and the women would wear these tight-

LGC: These wasp waists. And dress up and go to little parties. Little afternoon teas and parties and take part in the church work. And that was the middle class doings.

SS: In other words, they had leisure?

LGC: Yes, that's right.

SS: And the country women didn't have that? Would that be fair to say?

LGC: I'd say that's very fair. Uh-huh. Yeah, I think that's right.

SS: What about the church work that the women were doing in those days? How would you characterize that? I know from- and this was on a gran der scale, but I know that missionary work was tremenduously important. And many young women who were educated went over seas.

LGC: Oh, yes. Well, part of the missionary work, and that fell to the Women's Missionary Society, they called them Ladies Aides in those days or Missionary Societies, and that sort of thing. And they did lots of sewing for the missionaries overseas. They'd make layettes for babies and diapers and they were continually doing some kind of work to help the missionaries that they sent to the fields of China and Japan and Africa. They were always doing something to raise money to send medi cal supplies or something to the missionaries that they supported. And then the Ladies Aids of the churches^part of their job was to keep the churches clean up and bring flowers on Sunday and bake cookies and carry on the evangelism between the families of the church and vi sit the bereaved and the sick and help each other in any way that they could. And besides raising money to carry on the work of the church, of the local church, they'd have bazaars, even as they do today, you know. And church suppers where you all brought food and then sold sup pers out. They'd have baked food sales and sell food and the farmers would bring in produce from the farm. And often the minister was paid in kind. He would get a hog, butchering time. He'd get half a beef. He'd get so many sacks of potatoes. It was just an old farm custom that some of the nicest things raised, you gave to the minister.

SS: Well to carry on the work of evangelism between the families- what did that mean?

LGC: Well, it meant: We will lo^e one another; we will comfort them in sorrow, and sickness and distress. We would visit them, we would bring and the main thing was bringing things. You brought a glass of special jelly, and you baked one of your very special cakes and you baked one of your nicest pies if there was a death in a neighboring family. And you called and you brought something in your hands as the positive proof of your sympathy. You didn't come empty handed. You brought something to show that you shared in their loss and in their sorrow and in their time of need. You were there to help them and be a spiri tual comforter as well as a physical comforter. You could get in and turn out a washing for the family if the mother NjgWS sick. You could bake up a big batch of bread. You could do various things like that.

SS: So, in other words this evangelism worked mainly in times of need?

LGC: That's right. Yes, that's right, uh-huh.

SS: Did it work?

LGC: Oh, I think so. Yes, I think it made the people who more than the people who received. It's more blessed to give than to receive. But you felt very grateful for your own good health and your own good for tune , and you wanted to share with somebody else and try to make themtry to comfort them in what they were going through. And I think it worked both ways. It was nice to know in sorrow that you were rememebered by other people, and it was nice to go and you gained, too. There was a spiritual growth on both sides.

SS: The church work- how important was it for the women as a part of their overall social activity? Was this the main social activity?

LGC: Yes, it was. Very definitely. And the social life of the whole com munity sort of centered around the churches. The young people were taken care of. There would be parlor games for them to play and a meeting ground for young couples. They could pick their partners for life that way. And there was an effort to keep them all within their own churches. That was a great thing; the young people of this church would get together for Hallowe'en parties, for Christmas parties for any holiday, there was a great getting together of the young people. And the little children; there were games and plays and programs cen tering around the youth of the church as far back as I can remember. One of the big purposes of the church was to help bring up the coming generations in the belief and the traditions of the old folks.

SS: Well, do you think that the churches in Moscow did much more of this, say, than the churches in the small towns that had to draw on mostly country folk to come in?

LGC: Yes, I think so. I think maybe Moscow was more able because there were more people in it to start out, Kthere were more homes, more people to exchange, and the country folks- it was harder to get into townj a team of horses and a buggy, you took a couple of hours to make the trip in and out, so there weren't so many families in the horse and buggy days that could get into Moscow to take part in the church life. And often out in the little rural schools, the teachers would put on the Sunday School program Sunday morning for the children, at least, of the community. And sometimes there would be preaching at the schoolhouse Sunday afternoon. The ministers would come out and do a little evangelism.in the community because it was hard before the coming of the cars for the families - it took about half a day to get up town and go to church an hour and then drive back home. The whole morning was spent that way.

SS: So many families would just stay and not go to church?

LGC: Yes, they stayed home and didn't go. That's right until the co ming of the car.

SS: Didn't some of the neighborhoods have just laymen too?

LGC: Oh, yes, some of their own people did it. Oh, sure. Many of them. Many of the more devout people had a little training would get up and read the Bible and they'd.have little discussions and the women that could sing would sing. And nearly every school had some little reed organ of some kind and they'd put on their own little church pro grams on Sunday morning.

SS: Well, in Moscow, most of the women who were involved in the active church work, were they mostly the middleclass women who had the leisure to take part?

LGC: Yes, that's right.

SS: How many times a week, just roughly, how often would they get together at the church for one thing or another? I mean, it would be more than just on Sunday?

LGC: Yes, yes, well, yes, they had women's clubs that met and women's associations that met and they had sewing cir62.es and quilting bees, you know and missionary societies that would meet. Oh, I imagine there wouldn't be a week go by but What there would be a couple of meetings at the church for the women. And there was always choir practice to go to and most of the women were singers. Lots of them would be women and there'd be a few men that sang in the choir. But it was another place for the young folks to get together, too. They'd try to come and get some of the young boys and the young girls tossing, too.

SS: Were the Ladie's Aid and Missionary Society one and the same organi zation?

LGC: They were practically the same. Some people called them the Ladies' Aid and others called them the Women's Missionary Society. Nowdays we call them the Women's Associations. That means all the women of the church and they do mostly Bible study. And then we have different sewing groups, too, that meet to sew for the missionaries. So that's the way nearly all the churches are constructed.

SS: Well, it strikes me that in those days, from what we're saying, that the church activity was definitely predominant in the women's acti vity and the men were much less involved.

LGC: Yes, that's right.

SS: Is that true?

LGC: I think that's true. Yes, uh-huh, I think the women were the ones that really supported the church and did all the extra things about the church Many of them had that kept the altar decorated and washed the linens and the laces that they used on some of the church altars. It was the women that saw to all of that and that it was ready. And nowdays I see lots more men taking part in it, but in those days that was the women's perogative. And it was the women's social outlet more. The men had other outlets that they could go to.

SS: Do you think that it would be true to say that a lot of men had to be dragged to church if they'd go at all in those days?

LGC: I think so. I think there were a lot of them that had to be- there were some of them that had been trained to go to church and went, especially among the Scandinavian people. It was so much a part of their lives in the old country and they were very devout and got their families, even if they had to hook up the horses and go on Sunday mor ning, they did it. They'd been well versed in the work of the church. But among more of the American- of the people who had been Americans longer, been citizens of this country longer, they weren't so devout. But the people who had come from the Scandinavian countries- and that's a lot of them around the Moscow settlement- they were very devout in attendance to their church.

SS: Well, do you think that women by-and-large that really apply what they were preaching about and what they were praying about in church and in their everyday lives too, or do you think it was a separate- was se parate from what they did?

LGC: In the very early days it was very much apart, it was their reward, they might not have much right now at the present but in the sweet-byand- by they would be rewarded. You know, all the old time songs were along that line; about There's a Gold Mine in the Sky, you know, and they're all going to have their reward later on, if they had here on earth that was more stars in their crown. And I think for the very early settlers a lot of the women had that feeling, that it was alright to sacrifice and suffer now because they would get their re ward.

SS: Do you think they really believed that?

LGC: Yes, I do.

SS: Really believed—

LGC: Yes, I do. I believe that they believed that very- and when someone died it was always, "Well, they've gone to their reward. Try and not grieve because they have gone to their reward. They have mounted the battlements."

SS: But that changed?

LGC: Well, yes, (chuckles) in seventy-five years-

SS: Well, I don't mean that, but you said the very early ones were very strong on that. But what about the ones in between?

LGC: Well, I think gradually there was the tapering off and the questioning over the years. But I can remember as a child these women all^were going to get their reward in heaven and it was just alright. They'd do a little something here on earth, it was only temporary- all that would pass away and they had mansions in the sky that they were buil ding and the^treasures, they were laying up in heaven, where theieves could not break in mobs corrupt. And every one of them had that feeling that that was the way it was going to be. So that was-

SS: Do you think that was true of both the farm women and the middle class women? It's a hard question.

LGC: It's a hard question. I just don't know. But I think many of the farm women felt that way, that this is just a temporary- just the vail of tears we're passing through and we will overcome, we will have our reward in the next world and everything's going to be alright.

SS: What was the attitude toward death then? Were they very matter of fact about it, in those days? Did they just take it in stride? You know death is a kind of traumatic experience today, and I wonder what it was like then?

LGC: Oh, they suffered terribly, too, then. Women suffered terribly then in the loss of their children and in the loss of the loved ones. I think that somehow all the Balm in Gilead doesn't seem to ever assuage it much. We should, you know, if we want to show our faith and exemplify our faith in what we preach., we should be able to stand tall and strong at the time of death, and say, "Let's not hold this good man from his reward. He's earned it. he's mounted the battlements, let us re joice." You know, but I never saw many of them doing it. I've seen the later ministers do much better at it. We ve ministers in our Presbyterian Church that say, "We have come today to celebrate the life of the person that's dead." And I think that's good. I think it's a much healthier way, instead of, "We're here to mourn and grieve over the passing." I think it's better to say, "We have come to celebrate the life that he lived." And that makes sense to me. But it is only in the last twenty years that I've heard that approach. "And now to day we've come to celebrate, not his death, but we have come to cele brate the life that this good man lived."

SS: I'm wondering about whether the commonness of death in those days, as compared to now, would have had an effect, because people must have lived with it, more of the certainty, knowing that their children might not grow up. Knowing that death could take you at any time. I mean, nowdays. death only seems to become real when people become old.

LGC: Yes.

SS: But most of the population seems to think they're immortal.

LGC: That they're going to live forever.

SS: Yeah. But in those days, I wonder how and living with death all the time-

LGC: And so many of the children dying and so on- I think it's like Rachel of old, grieving for her child and will not be comforted. I saw that go on and on; the grieving for their children and really, if they were firm believers that they had gone to this place of eternal glory, they should have been rejoicing. They were out of all temptation, out of all sorrow's way. But in all my years, I've never seen anybody that wasn't just grieving for their child and cannot be comforted.

SS: What about the death of older people? In those days didn't- wasn't there a real tendency for the old in the families to stay with the family and be cared for?

LGC: Yeah, they stayed with the family and there was always that talk about the vacant chair and "We shall meet, but we shall miss him." You know there will be the vacant chair. And I don't know, somehow it seemed that they were always missing the one that was gone. And there was much talk about it. Nowdays I don't think we spend so much time tal king about it. We know it's like the ripening of the fruit and the falling of the autumn leaves, it's going to happen. It's inevitable and we accept it better. in those days every life seemed to be so precious. And there's much talk about "Oh, when Grandma was alive. Grandma did this, and we'll never any more of those wonderful things she did." And that's kind of a defeatist attitude.

SS: Well, I've read about death in the 19th century, that many of the rural people- it was very important to them, for example, the way that their relative died. If they died alert and knowing what was going on and particularly if they had a religious

LGC: Yes, oh, yes. He was ushered right in through the pearly gates! Yes.

SS: Wasn't that something that was

LGC: Oh, especially with younger people that were alert, they all were trying to bridge that last few minutes aftdl seeing if the person who died had looked into heaven and seen what was there. I remember a young girl who died and the mother always was so comforted because the last words the girl had spoken was, "I hear the angels singing." And the mother said she had - "I know that my daughter looked straight into heaven. Because she said to me, she turned and said to me when she died, "I hear the angels singing."u And that was a great comfort to the mother. But most of them, as I say, they were no better than Rachel of old, they grieved for their children and could not be comforted. It only took time to wear it out.

SS: Was it usual when someone was dying in the family, for the family to attend on the person?

LGC: Yes, they all sat up with the dying person and they sometimes sent for the minister and the minister would come and sit up. And somebody dying quite a ways off they'd get on horseback and ride to sit up with the family of so-and-so who is dying tonight. We must go and sit with the family. And they'd go and sit.

SS: Would close family friends sit, too?

LGC: Yes. The close family friends would sit and sometimes the minister would come and sit all night to help the grief- the people through the grief. Yes.

SS: Well, that certainly sounds different.

LGC: Yes, it sounds different. It really does. And^some of those old-time traditions are so ingrained in you, you feel it has to be done. When we lost our little Mary Louise Perrine last spring at the nursing home, I went over and sat up all night til she died. I felt, I just felt I had to. I couldn't leave her there to die alone. And although I knew she wouldn't be- you have to do it alone anyway- you do it alone. But I thought I just had to and I went and sat up all night with her. So that's some of the traditions that stick with you.

SS: What about having the grandmother, for instance, or the uncle staying with the family when they're really quite old. Do you think that made a great difference to them as individuals in their last years? To be with the family? I'm thinking of the contrast with today when so people do go in the home. In those days, did that person remain a functioning part of the family?

LGC: Well, they stayed with them because it's just that family loyalty, you know. I kept my brother Bert here who grew old, and you knew him. I kept him here til he was eighty-six and he could no longer function, he no longer any control of his bladder or bowels than anything. And I kept him til I just couldn't do it any longer. Then the doctor or dered him to the nursing home. He said, "Lola, you can't do it. You've got to." And I grieved to have to do it. I felt I was neglecting my duty, that I should have seen my brother down into the grave, and not put him out in anursing home. And yet no^me knows better than I- I helped build all three of them- how wonderful they are and what good care- far better care than I can give them. I suppose it s just selfishness on our part; we don't want to give them up. We fool our selves into thinking we can do everything they need and they're better with us than if they were there.

SS: Well, in the olden days, you know in those families- did many families have an old member in the family they were caring for?

LGC: Oh, yes, that's the only place they could keep the^you know. Yes, and until they built the two new nursing homes and that's been- the first nursing home we built in about 19555. Before that they was no place for them to go but to the poor farm out there.

SS: Which I understand was a terrible place.

LGC: Terrible place! Yes. Yes, it was awful. And nobody with any kind of family pride would think of allowing their relatives to go there. Just people who had- just the derelicts that went there. And I think maybe the new nursing homes with all their lovely facilities, maybe some of that old stigma sticks with us. I know of some people who don't want to go to Latah Convalescent- oh, that's the county- you know, just be cause they call it Latah County Convalescent Home, and that's so ridi culous, because everybody pays there. Everybody, even the county cases. They're getting medicare- everybody pays, both of them, none of them are county cases.

SS: Do you think that it had an effect on the family to have the elderly people in the home. Nowdays, it seems like it's just the husband and wife and the kids. In those days it was a bigger unit.

LGC: Well, I think it gave feeling of continuity. I don t think the children suffered any by it. I think the children had a feeling of well, when we get old that's the way we are. And they could accept it. Here was grandpa and grandma getting a little more frail and a little more feeble, and they'd have to make allowances, grandma couldn't run and wait on 'em so much, you know. And I think it gave them a great feeling of continuity and a feeling of responsibility. And we've got to grow up and be able to take our parents' places and we've got to take care of our parents they way they take care of Grandpa and Grandma. I don't think it was bad at all.

SS: Do you think that for Grandma and Grandpa that they could function longer because they still had something to do for the family?

LGC: Yes, I think so. Some of them felt very helpful- I can remember Grand ma- Earl's grandparents knitting stockings for my children and making dresses. And, oh, they took such pride in what the children were doing, and what they did at school. They always wanted to go to the school programs and see what they were doing. And it's a great sense of continuity. And it's a good picture of life I think for the child ren to grow up.see this is the process; you have the parents, and there are the grandparents and there are the uncles coming, and you have the family get together on Thanksgiying and there'll be Christmas and then there'll be Easter. And all the folks will come. I think it made the family a very important unit.

SS: Uh-huh. More so than now?

LGC: Mo»e so than mow I think. I think so.

SS: One thing I really want to ask you about; we were talking about the middle class and country women. Now what about the status, distinc tions between them? I have a feeling that there were quite a few. That they were rather subtle.

LGC: Yes, , yes.

SS: This sense of superiority; did it make the country people- at least it seemed like it was intended for the country people to feel backward?

LGC: Yes, surely, surely. And as we know in any society, there are always some people wanting to put somebody down, you know. And these were just the rural people and these children even in the school-"0h, these children come in from the country!" And they weren't as well kept. But with the coming of electricity and water on the farms, you couldn't tell the rural kids from the city kids. They were all cleaned and scrubbed. But before that, there was a difference, a distinction. The children wouldn't be quite as clean. There was lots of talk about BO and these smelly kids, you know, and that sort of thing. There was more of a distinction. And the mothers who had to pick the peas, their kids would come to school and their dresses wouldn't be iron^ in the days when dresses had to be ironed and starched and stiff. And there was a feeling, you know, among the other kids. These are the kids from the country and these are the kids from the other side of the tracks, and that sort of thing. that's been going on a good many years!

SS: What did the country people say back to that? What did the farm women have to say to their city sisters who were a little uptown? Did they feel that they were just putting on airs? (Chuckles)

LGC: Yes. Of course I, as a country wife, was quite different, you know, because I couldn't have cared less! I couldn't have cared less! But I remember, I'll have to tell you this- this really happened. There was a lady lecturing at Historical Club and I was just a little,fat country wife and I was invited to come in to this great historical lecture, and this woman had toured Europe with a group of University children- University students, so she was going to give a talk on conditions in Germany and all these places she'd been. So it was how Germany had already gone into Poland and there was already the murder of the 6,000,000,000 Jews we were on the brink of war ourselves, and this woman got up at the Historical Club in front of all the select of the town and started in telling about- "Why," she said, "Hitler did just right, murdering that bunch of Jews." And it went on, and she talked for about forty minutes about these terrible Jewish people. So at the end she asked for questions, and I was just a guest of some folks, got up and said, "Well, my Christian conscience won't let me sit here and listen to you talk that way. This was a crime against humanity, and Hitler has committed an unspeakable crime, and how you can stand there and defend him, I don't know." So the lady took one look at me and she didn't answer, but she said to the hostess, "Who is that woman, anyway? ' I don't think I know her." See, I was just a lit tle upstart from out in the country. "Who is this woman? I don't think I know her. She must be a Jew herself, she has such a big nose!" So I was still standing on my feet waiting for the answer, so I said to her. "Well, the word is Jewess, not Jew." she is a Jew herself, she has such a big nose. So, I said, "The word is Jewess!" And I sat down. And well, the other ladies came and apologized for her to me. But that is what this little, fat farm wife did at that yery meeting! Of course I was just a guest there, I should have kept my mouth shut. But I couldn't do it. So, later we were in the war and England was standing with her back to the wall, and the FBI came to Moscow to investigate this lady because she'd been a spy, taking university stu dents through Germany, and of course the first place they sent her was right out- "Go out and talk to Lola Clyde, she'll tell you about the lady." So I told them about how she said, "I think she's a Jew."

SS: Did she teach at the University?

LGC: She was connected with the University.

SS: I thought maybe she taught German or something.

LGC: No, but she was connected with the University. That was a well remem bered fact around Moscow.

SS: You stood up to her.

LGC: The rest of them, of course, were too polite. She was the guest speaker. But I was just a guest, too,and I just wasn't going to stand there and lisLen to her go on that way. So, that was the response anyway. But I was never much inhibited, you know, by any of it.

SS: The McConnells were certainly the elite.

LGC: Yes.

SS: What are the other families? The Days would have been the elite.

LGC: Oh, yes the Days. Oh, the Adair girls; the Doctor Adair family. All the doctors were quite elite. Judge Forney.Old Judge Forney. Tell you another cute story about Old Judge Forney. He'd been the first pre sident of the University, you know, before they had a university. He said, "I had the ideal presidency," he said, "I had no faculty, no buil dings and best of all no lawns'.' And I was sent by the head of the history department with a big bunch of books to Judge Forney. And he lived in that house- not the first house built in Moscow, like that miserable books says, it was built much after a lot of the o thers. Anyway, I knocked at the door and Mrs. Forney came to the door, and you'd have thought I was a Fuller Brush man. She started in motioning for me to get away, I had a brief case with me, she thought I was an Avon peddler, I guess, Avon wouldn't have done her any good. But any way she motioned me to get out of there. So I just hollered in there at her, I said,'Mrs. Forney, these are the Judge's books, and if you don't want 'em I'm going to throw 'em on the porch for you, and I did, I just opened the brief case and threw 'em on her porch. So, Mrs. Forney got her books back and then she opened her door to see what it was about, but, I was gone by that time! I was working in the histhat's how long ago I was working in the history department.

SS: That sounds like a very elite attitude.

LGC: Yes, and she thought I was a peddler, motioning me, so I just dumped the books on her porch. And then we had Mrs. Hodgins, who had been an Agnew from Boise, and she was quite one of the elite and Permeal French, the Dean of Women, cut quite a swath and she set quite a pace-

SS: Do tell me a little bit about her, since you've mentioned her. I've heard some of the old malelalumnis of the college- Miss French, they certainly remembered her.

LGC: She had very strict ideas of- if a young man called on a girl three times she went into her little private room and asked what their in tentions were! And even in those days in the gay roaring '20's say- "I've just got the worst intentions in the world! I don't know what you're going to do about it, Permeal!" But she was quite a gal, al right.

SS: Would they dare call her Permeal?

LGC: Oh, I think so, some of them. Some of them just laughing. Just laughing about it a little, "Well; my intentions are^bad, iVe got devious designs." But anyway, one lady that entertained, they very lavish parties and lots of cocktails. But she gave the word to these little serving girls, "Be sure and put three glasses of orange juice on the cocktail tray, because one of them is for Dean Permeal French. Be sure there is the orange juice for her." But the little serving girls always noticed that the three orange juice glasses came back untouched!6oPermeal must have had a few of those little cocktails! (Laughter) But the little girls weren't quite that stupid, but they put them on anyway since they were requested to do it. But anyway, she was very charming and she was a large, bosomy woman, the real dean of women type and she sailed majestically through the halls, and laid down these rules and regulations for the youth of the land.

SS: How understanding do you think she was or would have been of young peo ple's problems? I'm talking about- the dean it seems today is expec ted to take care of all of these psychological problems if she's good.

LGC: All I can say is, "Dean French, how I wish you were back here now. How I wish you were on the campus now."

SS: Do you mean that just because of the moral—

LGC: Yes, I think so.

SS: Might turn her hair white prematurely.

LGC: Yes, that's right. I think it would be alright.

SS: But I mean for kids' problems. If they had a problem, do you think they could come to her?

LGC: No, I think not. No I should say not. She'd sail majestically, you know. And I think most of them thought she was quite a hypocrite. I think so, too. Not that I ever ran afoul of her because I was an ol der girl, I had been out teaching school, and I was one of the older girls and studious, and I knew what I was up there for. But I don't think she was very kind or understanding or helpful wht the problemsif a girl got pregnant, there was just one thing, "Get out of the University." Yeah, that's right, and she called-^ .an affair, and one of the professors was involved, she called in all the girls and gave them a lecture, she said, "Now you must remember, - so-and-so isn't quite himself." And one of the girls spoke up and said, "That's right Dean, with all the talent that's going to waste around here, he never would have picked on that girl if he had been himself!" And she was shocked. (Laughter) And that little girl nearly got kicked out of school for such a break as that.

SS: For saying that.

LGC: Yeah. But she wasn't very understanding. But she was a good politi cian.

SS: Was this the case of a girl got pregnant?

LGC: Yes. One of the university faculty members. So, this other little gal said, "Well, if he'd been himself he never would have picked on that one.^so much talent around!" So they've had these problems going on for a long time.

SS: The flapper era, now in the '20's-

LGC: Yes, in the '20's; the roaring '20's.

SS: I had the idea that morals were really changing at that time.

LGC: That's right, they were. It was the era of the hip flask, you know, and you go to a dance, you know, and all the boys had a hip flash. That was the regular adornment. And the gals had the big strings of beads, you know. I had been out teaching school and I was older when I went back to college and I graded papers in the history depart ment, tons of 'em

SS: This was after your kids were

LGC: No, this is when I was in college, myself, before I was married.

SS: Oh, before that?

LGC: Yes.

SS: You went to the University again?

LGC: Yes, this was '25 and '26 '26 and '27 when I was there, and like I say, I graded history- four hundred blue books maybe a week for history and took twenty-two houffc. One semester I took twenty-four hours and they took two credits away from me, and I had all A's the second semester and I had twenty-four hours.

SS: With what you saw about what the kids were doing on campus: was there lots of social life?

LGC: Oh, yes. Yes, there was lots of social life. There was lots of this queen business going on. I had no time for it, if you twentytwo or twenty-four hours, your nose is right at the grindstone, you know, and I graded for English. I graded at the English department for Georgia " Miller and I was on the debate team, I did drama tics I did two plays.

SS: Where did you live at that time? Were you in a sorority?

LGC: No, I lived at my mother's house and came in from the country every day.

SS: How far out was that?

LGC: It's about four and a half miles out and I walked most of the time.

SS: Really, you walked into town?

LGC: I walked a lot of the time.

LGC: Daily?

LGC: Well, not daily, sometimes- I did have an old car that we drove part of the time, and I caught a ride with some neighbors that went to the convent, sometimes. But lots and lots of times I walked because I'd be too late to catch a ride going home. I'd have to stay for play practice; I had to stay for to go on debate teams- places and for prac tice.

SS: Was this for one year, that you did this?

LGC: I did it one year. I went one year to Lewiston Normal; one year to the University of Idaho and the rest I did by correspondence and sum mer school.

SS: Really. There's a couple of things about- I've heard a lot- I've heard the men talk about the fraternities at the time and a lot of the country boys didn't go into fraternities; too much money..

LGC: Yeah, that's right; too much money.

SS: And they have mixed feelings about the fraternities. They were rather exclusive.

LGC: Oh, yeah.

SS: Were the sororities the same way?

LGC: Oh, yes, in those days they were very exclusive and they were very snooty and they - yes, there was lots of heartache and heartbreak over them. There wasn't on my account, because, like I say, I was twenty-six years old. I'd been a schoolteacher and I was ambitious. I wanted to make good grades and with all the hours I took and all the papers I had to grade, there was no room left for anything else.

SS: You were there for business?

LGC: Yes. I was mature. And sometimes the girls at Forney Hall would invite me to come and stay all night with them if it got too late and they knew I had so far to go home, they would invite me to come and stay and I did. And some of those girls are still my lifelong friends. Those girls that would have me come there and stay and I did that. I had no time for it. I went into a couple of honoraries; education honorary, debate honorary and so on. And the thing I had to ask wasif I had to memorize a lot of stuff , I don't want in, because I haven't the time to go memorize it. And they took me without memo rizing all the rigamarole and stuff.

SS: Do you know of cases where girl's hearts were broken?

LGC: Oh, yes. The silly, mothers back home had pounded into their heads they had to make sororitx- One girl tried to kill herself, year she hadn't made a sorority, and it was just ridiculous, you know. It was rididulous. And some of them- they would divide them up according to chuch are you going to? And if you are going to a certain church then you join this sorority. Gee, the church members would just simply be so mad at you. And there was just too much emphasis on it.

SS: Did that mean that the sorority and fraternity life could easily make it more difficult for the kid to study, and just take him away from his study?

LGC: Yes, I think so. You see the big long lists of chapter names they had to memorize, and the national officers and then all the pledge of allegiance, and symbolism. Get all that stuff memorized, you know, in order to be initiated. I don't know how they got their lessons. If they were getting their history they'd have been better off. I just thought it was a waste of time, myself. But when my girls got that age, they all joined and I let them. I said, "You just go and find out for yourself, you know, if that's what you want." But they had it a little easier because they had more money and things to go on. And they were all real good students, and most of them could use good students. And that was oneAhing about the sororities, they made them keep their grades up and that was good, because they put them down at the study table and the older sisters helped the younger ones and all that was good in that respect and it did- I think it had a good effect on their morals, because if they hadn't been pretty fine little gals, none of the sororities would accept them.

SS: That's what I wanted to ask you. Those days, in the '20's, do you think that relations before marriage were really very uncommon, or-

LGC: Oh, sure they did. I think there were lots of babies born- lots of girls had to quit school and hurry and go home. It happened all along. And there were mothers covering up, they just weren't so open about it. But then it was such a disgrace and such a stigma and so on and so forth, The poor little girls would be about to kill themselves over it, and I think there was just as Much going on, only it was all kept so in the dark. And it was so much more disgraceful and terrible, you know. Nowdays the gals have sense enough to say they did it on purpose and they want to raise their babies. I think it's smart.

SS: What about Dean French? Do you think she probably knew it was going on and-

LGC: Oh, yes, she was just sticking her head in the sand, she wanted to believe it didn't go on and that her little girls wouldn't think about it. Oh, she must have known if she had a lick of sense and all.

SS: It was a lot more difficult in those days compared to how, when it's sanctioned. They don't have to hide it.

LGC: They don't have to worry. No, no, they don't have to worry, and I think it's better. It's better for the,Jmental health, better for their physical health; it's better all the way around. I think they've come a long way, myself.

SS: Was birthcontrol information available in those days? In the '20's?

LGC: Oh, no.

SS: Could you get it in college?

LGC: Oh, no, no.

SS: Planned parenthood?

LGC: Oh, no, no. No! Heavens, I had four babies in four years and I was one of the smart girls! You know what I mean. And hush, hush, and doctors wouldn't even tell you. No. After I had four babies, why they wouldn't even tell me then. No. No. There was great hush and secrets.

SS: I didn't realize it was so bad, but it doesn't surprise me.

LGC: No. That's the way it was. No. You didn't talk about such things even. Uh-huh. You didn't talk about such things! I had a boys from India here as a foreign exchange student and so he told me, he said, "I'm going back to India and I'm going to make two blades of rice grow where only one grew before. I'm going to cut India's birth population in half, I'm going to cut it in half." He said, "Now, Mama, I want you to tell me all about planned parenthood." I said, "I'll tell you, honey, the way it is: you start in planning after you know there's going to be another baby! The babies don't know a darn thing about this planned parenthood. And the best thing you can do is go up there on the campus and ask those fraternity boys, I think they can clue you in." So I saw him again just a year ago. He said, "I've done pretty well, I have eleven sisters and they're all doctors. And in India the women doctors serve the women and after they've had two children my sisters tell them, "That's enough." And give them the means, give them the Pill." And I said, "I think that's just fine." And he said, "I sell Shell fer tilizer and fly my own plane," And he was from Madras, "And I am ma king three blades of rice grow for inhere one grew before. And we're doing alright." (Laughter) So, you see

SS: Do you think that the mores in college, now, at the University were different than they were in the country, say in the rural areas around?

LGC: Yes, I think so. Yes, I think that the girls out in the country- they were more intent on just getting a man- and dragging sane man in oUd marry him and then they were all settled right there. They weren't going on to college. They weren't going out for careers. They wanted to become a farmer's wife, most of them, and most of them just did that.

SS: Did that mean that they were much less likely to be fooling around, say before marriage? In the country?

LGC: Oh, no, I think it went on too, every, But most of the gals seemed to think that was one way of catching a nice young farmer was just to get pregnant and by golly, we'll just have a shotgun wedding, and there'd we'd be. They had her made.

SS: They were common, I know that.

LGC: Oh, yes. I think it was just as common. I think it was just as com mon then as it is now. I really do. I don't think they need to de cry the young people. I think they just know better now. They are freer, they are more open, they're smarter now.

SS: Do you think there was a difference in attitude- I'm thinking now about the people who were high status and stuff; was there a difference between those who had high status, like the Mc Connels, who had de finitely achieved high status, and those who were kind of the social climbers? Who were upwardly mobile.

LGC: Yeah.

SS: Do you think there was a difference in them- I mean, in their attitude? I have been told by some people, that people who were genuinely high status didn't try to show it. They weren't ostentatious, but other people who were up and coming were always trying to put the other people down.

LGC: Yes, I think that's true in any society. We had real ladies and gentlemen in town; just real ladies, fine people, fine, good , Christian women and! Clarice Sampson's mother was one of them. Mrs. Moody was one of the kindest, sweetest, Christian women ever lived. And they were always helpful and kind, and doing the right thing because it was right. And trying to be good Christians and good neighbors and they weren't too concerned about the little fashionable tricks and traits. There were a lot of good, fine, bright, brilliant women. And with the coming of the University they really brought in a new dimen sion. Lots of those fine early-day professor's wives were smart and kind and gracious and highly intelligent; well-bred. And they brought a new dimension into the community.

SS: Were they very involved in the community, or were they—?

LGC: Well, for a while there was a great division about this town and gown stuff, you know. The town women would have a society one time- and then the faculty women. And then one year we were going to have a faculty wife for president and the next year the town women get to have it. You know, they went on- well, exaggerating the difference between town and gown. But when I was a young farm wife and my child ren were growing up, I found that I had far more in common with the faculty wives than I did with the town wives. We were more interested in the same things. We were interested in bettering the conditions for everybody's children. That's why I worked hard on the health unit. had no health unit here. And when I had taught in the Normal School in South Idaho, we just routinely vaccinated every child. Gave them all their shots right at the school. And when my children started to school here they had none of that. So I started questioning too and many of the faculty wives had come from places where sure, just routinely went through the schools and vaccinated them. We had dentists come out and fill the childrens' teeth right there at the school for fif ty cents a child. And if anybody couldn't pay for it, the school paid for it. And we bought all the books in the normal school where I taught. And there were a lot of things. And I started a PTA here in Moscow and was the first president. Because, I thought, "My goodness, that's one thing I can use my education and my training and the things I'd seen done out in other places."

SS: When was that, when the PTA started?

LGC: Well, they'd had a little Mothers' Club before that. I think it must have been about '35, probably. And about that time we put in the Heal, Ed Snowman, my next door neighbor down here was county com missioner, and so the first thing we did was put me on for the Health Unit; to head a committee.

SS: What you're saying then is, it seems to me, that the faculty women in tended to be more interested in those things—

LGC: That's right. More interested. And they were the people I could count on. As head of PTA I'd get the faculty- they would vote 100 percent for these things. And the town women took less interest. Lot of them, of course, were picking peas and gone all day and couldn't come to PTA.

SS: But even the middle class-

LGC: Even the middle class they attended. "Well, my husband- well, I can't take a stand on that, it'd hurt my husband's business." YOu know. The faculty were the ones that really saw the need for these things.

SS: So there was a certain amount of controversy over having the Health Unit and that kind of thing?

LGC: Oh, of course, there was. Yes, there was a controversy.

SS: Is that because-

LGC: It was socialized medicine and^were sticking out our necks, and yet we were just getting over the Depression- just coming out from underwhen nobody had had doctors. And so we were all just struggling along. But this is something we had done back in the school and it was a won derful thing. And I worked hard on that: getting the PTA going, because there were many things we could do. And we ran an exchange there at the school, we'd bring in all the outgrown overshoes, for instance, and put them in big boxes and some other mother could take those over shoes our kids had outgrown. We didn't sell 'em, we j ust gave them. We had a room set up. We had a room there of patterns little dres ses for girls. We got the little patterns and when they got too small we took 'em in there and the next mother could check 'em out. And remnanents of clothing. We'd bring them in. We had great button boxes. The library now has a button box where people go and get buttons. Well, we had it at PTA. They'd go in and pick out buttons. Warm winter coats and caps. Instead of giving them to a rummage sale we hauled them in the school and PTA had women volunteers and you'd go in and see if some of these coats and caps would fit your kids. And it made it more democratic because everybody went; we all went. And it wasn't that we'd gone to a rummage sale and bought 'em for next to nothing, we went in there and we took somebody else's clothes for our kids and gave ours to somebody else smaller. And those were all good,progressive things.

SS: Really?

LGC: Uh-huh. Good, progressive things. I put in the hot lunch program, too. The government was just starting in to sponsor it. And there was a big argument the school board that, "Heavens, wasn't that something. What more would the district have to do?" And so, I served on that committee to put in the first hot lunch and helped cook the first lunch.

SS: When do you think that was?

LGC: That was about '35, too. '35 and '36, along in there. Maybe '34.

SS: Were there some people that didn't see the use in the PTA at the time? When it started?

LGC: Oh, . We were a bunch of upstarts, and they didn't want any PTAs around there. Yeah, that was nogoodl

SS: Why would they not want the PTA?

LGC: We would be- the next thing we'd be wanting more new schools. And that was right! We went out and carried the ball for new schools. Of course we did. We wanted a new high school and we got it! And all those were good things. And all that came about through PTA work. And it was good work. And we had fun at the same time. We did a lot of good things. And the thing that made it so important was, it was the peak of the Depression. People were still— and we put in the lunch and milk. Everybody had to have milk. Give them the half pint of milk, right there, and anybody couldn't afford it, why let the government subsidize it! And, of course, oh, my, that was just terrible. But we did it in spite of them anyway. And now they ^buldn't get along without the hot lunch, you know. But there was lots of objecting ye$. I remember the superintendent of schools saying to me, "Well, Lola, the first thing that you'll be wanting, you'll be wanting us to subsidize mothers to have babies!" And so, I said to that superintendent, "I could just use a little subsidy myself I I have four bright ones for you, and I feel the government should subsidize me; I've got four of 'em for you. And they're all going to be good, smart children and get along in schooll" Wasn't that nasty? He said to me, "You'll be wanting to subsidize these parents for having children." I said, "I could use a little subsidy right now!"

SS: So that's another example of really mostly women doing the work, isn't it?

LGC: Yes, yeah. There weren't so many women work ing then, the married women weren't teaching. And we did all that PTA business and that was good. And we would volunteer our time and go up there and help 'em pick out the coats and the overshoes that were outgrown we kept track of it. We checked out the patterns.

SS: Now, the distinction between the university women and the local women we were talking about; that was still existing in the *30*s?

LGC: Oh, vt was still there, because even in PTA they wanted to have a fac ulty- they wanted to write this into the constitution, when we wrote it up: One year we'll have a faculty wife and the next year a town wife and they did that a couple of times. Finally, I said, "That^s just ri diculous. What we are talking about is mothers, we're not talking about We're talking about mothers of children. And what dif ference does it make which mother? Where they are? A mother of a child is going to be president." So we got that done away with. And then, of course, after the war the Red Cross work and everything came along, we quit a lot of those activities, because then we became accep ted. It was accepted that they'd have hot lunches. It was accepted. And then a little later after that they consolidated and we had consolidation in the schools, and that was another ball of wax. And then I went on the school board, and I helped put through the books for the children. That we would furnish books and rent them to the children. We wouldn't give them to them for nothing; we would rent the school books to the children. And that was good.

SS: But you would say, that you counted more on the faculty wives as being progressive?

LGC: That's right. And really the people you could count on to help you in anything that was good and forwarding looking for the community, you'd get the faculty wives to help you, and they would.

SS: Was there much— do you think there was much active antipathy between faculty wives and town wives?

LGC: Well, yes, in the early years. And even yet there is some feeling, you know. "Well, we're not educated. These faculty women, they-" You know, I think there's still a little even, you know, I tell them I belong to the League of Women Voters, oh, my, some of the old-time women think that almost as bad as being a communist!

SS: Really?

LGC: And I told them that I belong to Common Cause. The other day someone was asking me about who I was going to vote for, and I said, "Well,I don't know, because I haven't studied it. I belong to Common Cause." Well, these dear, little women at the church said, "Isn't that some kind of a communist front?"

SS: Well, was the League going in the '30's?

LGC: No. No, we didn't get it going until the '40's. We didn't get it going til the '50's, into the first of the '50Ts. The League was going about 49 when I was on the school board, because I joined it then. We ,wanted to get tiflfough a bond issue and those women got out there and just worked like dogs getting that bond issue through. It was League of Women Voters that put it through.

SS: For a school?

LGC: Uh-huh. The school. Yeah.

SS: Was the League a very controversial group here, to start with?

LGC: Was there much opposition to it? It certainly seems like uppity wo men, you know, getting together and making up their own minds about these things.

LGC: Well, no, I always thought it was great stuff.

SS: I certainly agree with you.

LGC: I thought it was great stuff. A lot of the women though had been brought up, you know, in this conservative Republicanism and they took a look at League of Women Voters and said, "Why, they're all Democrats!" But that isn't true, you know. Of course that's not true- and if they've become that way- I haven't - I don't go any more at my age- but if they've allowed it's their own fault, they should have all been in there pit ching equally! They expect them all to come. It's open to everybody. And if Republican women sat back and didn't go, and Democrats dominated it, well, who's fault was it? But I have heard that from conservative Republican women.

SS: Were the college women very active in the churches, too? As active as the local women?

LGC: Yes, lots of them. Yes, most dedicated, especially in the earlier times. And, oh, heavens, they couldn't run their churches without'faculty women.

SS: Oh, really?

LGC: Oh, heavens, our faculty women really carry on the brunt of the church work

SS: Did they in the earlier years, too?

LGC: Yes, they were always dedicated, devoted people from the faculty down there pitching. When I think of the Dean Eldridges for example, they were the backbone of the Presbyterian Church. The Axtels; just back bones! Oh, and when you are at Lewiston you should talk to Mildred Axtel . Her husband is on the faculty at Lewiston Normal. I think he retired now. Hensley: Kenneth Hensley- do you know them?

SS: No, I don't. Her name is Hensley, isn't it?

LGC: Yes. Mildred Axtel Hensley. And their name would be in the phone book. 66: What were her parents ?

LGC: Well, her father and mother were on the faculty of the University of Idaho. He was a foreign language teacher and great Presbyterian, hardworking people. Brilliant people. Their five daughtersall of them Phi Beta Kappa. Mildred is a Phi Beta Kappa. She is just a brilliant girl. And she'd have a little time now. Her husband waswell, he was vice president over all the whole thing down there. He was superintendent of all the buildings and grounds and he was vice pre sident of everything.

SS: Okay. I want to ask you, too, about the revivals in those days. I've heard some interesting things about Bulgin and the Bulgin revival. I don't know if you remember Bulgin or not. But there were evidently quite a few- and what I was wondering about is- I've noticed this fee ling of a distinction- a real distinction, between those people that seemed to be in favor of more emotional revivals- evangelical type of religion and the others who -

SIDE D

LGC: Presbyterians weren't much for that. They were more like, well, others- more splinter religions would have big revival meetings and even put up a tent, you know, and have a sawdust trail. A sawdust floor in a tent and big bleachers,and they'd have kind of camp meetings even at the foot of Paradise Hill, I can remember when they had a big tent there for revival meetings. And my father didn't even encourage any of us children to go down to the revival meetings. He said, "Oh, they get carried away. Some of them." But there were many people like Billy Sunday, you know, and he was more like Billy Graham, I think.

SS: Was he here in this area, do you think?

LGC: I don't remember if he ever came here or not. I think he did. I think Billy Sunday was in Moscow at one time. But my father had very little empathy toward the revival meetings. He thought that re ligion and Christianity was something that lived in your heart for ever and that you didn't need to be revived. It was there all the time and you go on in your way and let your light so shine before men that you didn't need to revive it. And that was alright, too. But all the Presbyterians have generally been a lot like that, but many others.believed in, you know- The Southern Baptists, Shouting Baptists and Holy Rollers and there.elements like that, maybe they didn't have a church even in Moscow, but they'd come in and have a big revival meeting and there'd be a big fanfare and lots of good music and singing, And lots of people went to hear the good singing and the good music. And some people liked a little sensationalism and preaching, you know.

SS: Entertainment.

LGC: Yeah, that's right. But the Presbyterians have always been rather conservative, and it was something- "Let your light so shine before men that all men can see it." And that's the better way.

SS: I think I've heard people say that they didn't believe that it was a real authentic change, that it was something that would just last for a little while-

LGC: Yes, lots of times it was thatjway, you know. Lots of times it was that way, they were carried away by the emotionalism of the crowd and everybody walking down, you know to confess their sins. Some of them didn't have any sins to confess! They were pretty good old peo ple, you know! And they didn't need to get so carried away. But was one form of entertainment- we must remember this, looking back, they had no television. They had no telephones. They had no radios. They were just absolutely devoid of things to entertain them. The little school programs where the kids got up was about all they could really count on. Or little debate societies or little literary societies among their own people. And that was the sum total of their entertainment. So anything going on-

SS: Would attract people.

LGC: Would attract people.

SS: You know, we were talking about religion and I have to ask you about Frank B. Robinson and about Psychiana.

LGC: Yes.

SS: What was your opinion of him and his work?

LGC: Well, I thought he was really a very kind hearted, you know, nice person. The first person- any kind of a drive, Red Cross, any drive in town, everybody would ask Frank Robinson and he'd head the list; $100. He was always ready to help. But I don't really think he be lieved in his won Psychiana business, because he used to laugh at some of the men and say, "Well, there's lots of fools in the world!" Something to that effect. And he kept it rather quiet in town. He didn't like to sell the copies of his stuff on the local level. He sold it around the world, the lessons of it. But, he didn't- he was very, very kind and a very fine citizen. And I loved his beautiful wife, and I loved the kids. Yeah, they were fine kids, both of them. And I loved Mrs. Pearl Robinson. She was just a lovely, gracious, beautiful lady. And I never studied the religion much you know.

SS: Well, do you really feel that he did not believe in what he was tea ching? The Psychiana teachings?

LGC: Well, I never really talked enough to him, but I don't think, you know all these flamboyant advertisements about, "I talked with God. Literally and actually, I did." We all talk with God, with our Gods, you know. And I'm sure Frank Robinson talked with his God, you know, because he did so many lovely, fine, openhearted, generous things. But, too many people kind of misinterpreted what he was saying, I think, too. I never made a study of the lessons. I never got them, I did read his Crucified Gods Galore, and I agreed with him. Nearly every religion has it's own form of Jesus Christ who was sacrificed and died to save the world. And he was so right. There were lots of them. And lots of them with almost the same name as Jesus Christ. And there was nothing wrong with that Crucified Gods Galore And Doctor Drury who was our minister all that time, he thought Frank Robiiison was an awfully smart, brilliant man, and he agreed with him about- there were many Christs who hav4 been crucified. That history had a lot of them.

SS: They discussed religion quite often.

LGC: Oh, yes, they talked religion together ' lot, and were very good friends. And very friendly about it. It was very open and fine and intellectual discussions they had. I read his Blood on the Tail of a Pig, and I thought that was inferior to his Crucified Gods Galore. And the strange autobiography of Frank Robinson- well, I enjoyed the family so much and I'm such an admirer of all the fine things he did, that I just am not a fit person to talk about his religion, because I never read it. I never studied it. I did read, like I say, his Cru cified Gods Galore and I agreed with him- there were plenty of gods.

SS: A Strange Autobiography, I have read, and I thought a very interesting book. And the whole matter of his prosecution was his statements on his passport, which he said George Lanphere brought against him, was a very bitter episode it seems to me. And he suffered a great deal in that. And I'm just wondering what your impressions were in reading that book- Why, was there this strong antagonism between the two men?

LGC: They each ran a newspaper, you see. George Lanphere ran the- was it called Daily Star Mirror?

SS: Right.

LGC: And he ran the News Review, Mr. Robinson ran the News Review. And there was lots of rivalry. And George Lapiphere was a Democrat, and his paper always upheld the Democratic side of everything. And the News Review was more Republican.

SS: Was he a Democrat?

LGC: Yes. Oh, yes, very strong. And, of course, it was Depression years too, and there was lots of bitterness over Hoover and all that sort of thing. And it was the New Deal and everybody was out whooping it up, you know for Franklin Roosevelt and the New Look on everything. And the CCC camps and the WPA work projects, and it was quite controver sial between them, you know. But I know that during- Doctor Drury headed Red Cross and I worked on the board with him all those years through the Depression. And he said there was no cloth to wrap a baby in- they'd take newspapers, a newborn baby and wrap them in a newspaper to protect them. No milk; they didn't want them to sell milk in gallon cans for twenty-five cents, there might be germs in it. Well, Doctor Drury says, "Let them have the milk! The mothers can boil it if they're afraid of germs. I don't think this milk's going to hurt anybody. Be as clean as you can;-put it in a gallon can and let 'em have it, and have it for a quarter." And they did that sort of thing. And whenever Doctor Drury needed some extra money for the Red Cross, he went to Frank Robinson and he was never turned down. We always got money when we needed it for things like that. And those are- and that's Christianity in action. Isn't it? I told you the sweet story, the best story of all. We had a woman here and they called her the Galloping Goose in Moscow. She was a very retarded, you know and very odd and she walked on the road every place, just hiked up and down. And whenever she'd see a lovely free meal some place, she was hungry, she would go in and eat. So one day she was in the Moscow Hotel and the table was all set to entertain the state legislators, you know. They had lovely little :salads at all the places and she saw that beautiful food and went in and sat right down. And of course, the busboys and people came running and the heads of it came running to usher poor little old Ida right out of there, you know, so she wouldn't disgrace the meeting. And Frank Robinson rose in his majesty ' six feet four, two-hundred and twenty-five pounds and he just waved the busboys away, he said, "Ida is my guest today. She'll sit beside me and bring me her bill." And I love it, I just love it. That put every in the proper perspective. I will pay her bill!" People like that aren't all bad, are they?

SS: No. (telephone rings)

conversation resumes-

SS: well accepted by a lot of the business men on Main Street. He wasn't solid on Main Street. A lot of those people just didn't seem to like him, and I wonder if it was because of the polarization over this business with Lattphere- whether that is why he was not liked by a lot of people.

LGC: Yes, I think so. I think part of it was that. Now one very nice thing that speaks so well of him is that when he had this trouble over entering the United States, one of the people who really defended him was Senator Borah. And Senator Borah wasn't given to just de fending anybody, but he certainly went to bat for him and saw that Dr. Robinson was- And he was really a very fine citizen and a very interested person. And like I say, I don't understand about his re ligion because I didn't read it. I never did read his lessons that he had- they were supposed to be lessons that you studied, and I never read them. But the people that worked for him all said how good he was -

SS: To work for?

LGC: Yes.

SS: They did feel he was good to work for?

LGC: Yes. And the Mc Goffs lost a little boy out toward the golf course, out toward Robinson Lake in the big spring- when the spring freshets were going off, and everybody- all the neighbors came and looked and they couldn't find him and Dr. Robinson at his own expense hired a plane to come down and fly low over the wooded area out there and they found the little boy. And Dr. Robinson saw that the family was really hard up and he hired Mr. McGoff to come on into town and help him down at the Psychiana Publishing House. And Mr. McGoff worked there until he died. And he was awfully good to them. As I say, all my relationships with him were just on that order. When we needed something for Red Cross, the first person we thought about was go to Dr. Robinson and see what he'd do for us.

SS: What about some of the religious denominations in town? He claimed that there were some that were just really disliked him.

LGC: Yes, some of them were very bitter and they'd get up and pound the pulpits, you know and that sort of thing. And even in our own church- Mrs. Robinson and the children all belonged there; were members, and like I say, our Doctor Drury was very personally friendly with him and agreed about the Crucified Gods Galore, he said, "He is so right about it. Many of the great religions of the world, they all have the crucified God who died for humanity." And, he said, "It's sym bolic." And I know what he means. But, anyway, when we built the new church, they wanted a spire- a dome- that wasn't the point- they wanted a donation from everybody, so they went up and asked Dr. Ro binson. He said, yes, he'd give them ten thousand dollars, but he would put on a spire. The spire that pointed to heaven. And it would be dedicated to his lovely wife; lovely, gracious, Pearl Robinson. And our minister and I, we both agreed, it would be alright. But my there was some of the old-time, the old fundamentalists there; "Well," one of them said, "he'll want the sign Psychiana. He'll want to put a big sign on top, saying Psychiana, and flashing on and off all night!" And they wouldn't take the money.

SS: $10,0001

LGC: Yes, and that was a lot of money in those days. Oh, gee, the whole church only cost $42,000, so $10,000 would have done a lot of good. And he said, "I'm not a member of your church, but I would do it honoring my wife and my children." And I thought there was nothing wrong with that. But he wasn't asking for this sign, people interpre ted it that way. And every time they looked at that spire they'd have to say Psychiana Robinson gave it to us. Did I tell you that this Paul the brother to J. C. and the meaning of the News. They are Christian Scientists, of course, and J. C. past editor of the Christian Science Monitor and of course, that newspaper is like the Manchester Guardian. If you see it in the Christian Science Moni tor, you know it's right! It and the Manchester Guardian, we swear by 'em, you know. Well, he wants to come and write a story about Psychiana Robinson. He's a great believer and a great admirer of him and he studied him. He can just quote me long- oh, I have the loveliest letters here from Paul and I must write- I couldn't have him two years ago because my brother was d. ying- my other brother, but I've got to write and tell him that if he wants to write up about Psychiana, come on, now's a good -

SS: I saw him when he was here -

LGC: Oh, did you?

SS: Yeah, I ran into him at the museum. If he comes back, let me know, because I'd like to interview him, when he's here, because he's the only true believer I've run into.

LGC: He's a real believer. And Paul [k^ch wrote to me just the other day, I'd lost his address. Now just the other day I had another letter ' wanting to know if he could come now and do it. And I've got to write and tell him, "Come on, and write about Psychiana Robinson." And I did give him Doctor Drury's address and he'd written to Doctor Drury and Doctor Drury says,"I have the only complete file of the lessons that Dr. Robinson sent out. And you'd be welcome to come and borrow them from the library." Because he gave them I think to Huntington library. And he can get 'em there and use them. So I've got to write to Paul and tell him to come now, that he's welcome to come and stay with me and write the book.

SS: Was his wife really devoted to him?

LGC: Yes, I think so.

SS: It seemed in the book that's how he presents her.

LGC: Yes, I think she was very devoted to him. And he certainly lavished everything on her. And I remember the little girl was so sweet- so well liked. My daughters liked her so much. And there was a need in town for a youth center, someplace where the kids could get together and say, those kids went down and talked to Dr. Robinson and he gave them one! He furnished it! He set it up! He got the phonographs to play dance records so they could dance. Set the whole thing up. The first youth center in Moscow was Robinson's.

SS: Do you remember the local opposition to that? (church spire)

LGC: Yes, I remember. I remember that our church wouldn't take the $10,000 because they were the very conservative old-time people.

SS: Some of the others though, didn't they denounce him from the pulpit?

LGC: Oh, yes, yes, they'd be pounding the pulpit.^ Lots of them. Lots of them. But I never went along with it, I thought that he was a really very kind, very fine man and I always remember that standing up in the Moscow Hotel and assuming responsibility for our poor little lady that they were going to put out.

SS: Did he have a stubborn streak?

LGC: Yes, I think he did. Yes, he had strong likes and dislikes, you know too.

SS: Do you think those he was opposed to he was really strongly—

LGC: Yes, I think so.

SS: This woman you mentioned. What did you call her? The woman at the hotel that time that was retarded?

SS: Yes, we called her the Galloping Goose, because she walked all over the country, and her name was Ida. And she was rather retarded.

SS: Was she around here for very long?

LGC: Yes, oh, yes, she was quite a fixture here for maybe thirty years.

SS: How did she manage to get by? Was she living with parents?

LGC: No, she'd come all the way from Sweden or Norway, from back there. And she worked, she did daywork mostly. She'd go out and clean peo ple's houses and that sort of thing. But those depression days, I'm JUST sure she was hungry and she all this nice table set so lavishly and she was going in and she often went to church suppers and things where she didn't really belong and would eat, you know. But then they made her welcome at the churches, you know.

SS: Maybe I should get going. It's time for you to get supper.

LGC: Well, I've got supper all ready. I got it in the kettle out there. I got it in my crockpot. I got it ready. I've got supper ready, so I'm all set. (machine was shut off at this point)

SS: Blacks couldn't stay at the Moscow Hotel, that was typical of attitudes in those days. What do you know about the ?

LGC: Well, I really don't know. I really don't know. There have always been some people, and I imagine there are yet, you know, that would be prejudiced. I have never felt any prejudice in any way. I went to school with our one and only Negro family, with the children from that family. And all of us were just crazy about them. They could run so fast and were good to the little kids.

SS: The Settles?

LGC: Uh-huh, the Settles. And we justthought they were wonderful. And all of us girls just cried and cried when the Settle boys quite school, because they- the big boys wouldn't be able to run us through and play Black Man with us any more.

SS: Black Man?

LGC: Yeah, we played Black Man.

SS: What was that?

LGC: Oh, they'd run out to catch you, you know, and you'd run from one base to another. And then the man out in the middle he was supposed to be a black man. But the boys, they'd laugh just as hard as anybody about playing Black Man and they'd be the Black Man, too, you know. And then they'd sometimes take a hold of our hands and^run 'em through and they'd help the little ones get through and not get caught.

SS: You mean the older boys?

LGC: The Settle boys.

SS: The older boys lied to play with the girls.

LGC: Uh-huh. And we all played together. And I remember us girls crying when the Settle boys quite school because they wouldn't be there to play Black Man with us anymore.

SS: They quit to ?

LGC: Yeah, they moved. They moved to to town. They moved off the farm they'd been farming. Moved into Moscow. And boy, we just felt awful bad that the Settles boys had left us.

SS: Do you think they were fully accepted out there? Among the people?

LGC: Yes, I think so. I think out there on the farm- I remember many people- I remember one little- later on, who was my special friend too. you know. He was on the school board down in another school dis trict and there were a couple of other gentlemen on the board and this little girl went out there to teach said, "Well, I have three men on my school board, and the only white man among them is Gene Settles." And he was very fair and very fine with everybody. Of course, my folks had no feeling of discrimination. Gene worked for us when I was a little girl and every evening he was planning for the state examinations to pass the eighth grade examination to high school, so my mother would set him down every evening and help him learn all the state and county officials and help him with his mathmatics and help him with the things so he could pass. And he did, he passed. And, oh, my mother was so happy because Gene had passed the examination; could go on to high school.

SS: Would they go to the dances?

LGC: Well, as a little girl I never went to the dances, so I really don't know. I really don't know. But they were certainly awfully well ac cepted out at that little rural school. I was in classes the two younger boys; with Booker T. Washington Settles and who later becsme a teacher at Carver College, and married a woman who was a profes sor there. They were both professors and came out here to Idaho to summer school a couple of summers. And she was a gracious lady, too, in her own right. And I think Moscow has always been very, very friendly toward especially the Settles family. They were just high class farm people.

SS: There were some hard things about living.

LGC: There are sorrowful bad things and we're not so sorry.

SS: About leaving.

LGC: About leaving. If it were all the birds and the flowers on Paradise Hill, we'd want to stay forever. Now that's right.

SS: You know when I was asking you about the size of families.

LGC: Uh-huh.

SS: The thing I didn't finish asking you about was what happened in time. Now when your generation was growing up and you were having children, didn't you tend to have smaller families than your parents had?

LGC: Oh, yes, I think so. I definitely think so. I got some information from a fine old druggist down in Genesee and when I was pregnant with the fourth child he stopped me on the street and he said, " ., I think you've had enough babies." And I said, "Ive been thinking so myself." He said, "You come in here and I will show you what to use." And he got me one of those little rubber contraceptives deals. And the jelly that went with it.

SS: A diaphragm.

LGC: A diaphragm is what it was; and I used it. And there were four and that was it. And four was enough.

SS: Do you think that this was something that was not only you, but was common to many of the women who were your contemporaries?

LGC: Oh, sure. Many of them,1 they didn't know what to do. It was such a secret and the doctors wouldn't tell you and there was no planned pa renthood. There was no nothing.

SS: But still that change. I mean, it must have been hard to find out or they wouldn't have-

LGC: We needed to find out. And I even went to these health units that I'd helped organize and start, and well, they were very reticent. They couldn't tell you.

SS: They were afraid?

LGC: They were afraid, I think. And my doctor, the doctor who delivered these children one right after the other, he said only to me, "Oh, Mother, you're just the kind of a girl who should have lots of babies. You can have them easily. You've had no trouble. And look at the fine, bright, husky children you have. You should have a lot of 'em!" That's what my doctor said to me. And so I said to the doctor, "Yes, we al ways are able to pay our doctor bills." Said I to him! Yeah, isn't that something?

SS: But just in a way- isn't that a way that men kept women in the home?

LGC: Yeah, kept 'em pregnant.

SS: Taking care of the kids and them.

LGC: Yeah, hide their shoes and keep 'em pregnant! (Chuckles) That was kind of a joke, you know. Hide their shoes and keep 'em pregnant!

SS: Hide their shoes so that they can't go and be in the world.

LGC: That's right, and keep 'em pregnant.

SS: try and look at it historically: do you think there was some sort of revolution that went on in your generation that the women got wise and made a?

LGC: Yes, I think there was. I just know there was, because— The Depres sion hit and there was no premium on big families then. Women were just frantic when they found they were pregnant again. And how were they going to feed 'em? How were they going to pay the doctor bill? It was a frightening, terrifying experience. And I think all of them just determined, "Now there's got to be a way out of this."

SS: Do you think it was generally the woman who decided not to have a big family rather than a joint decision? It was a personal decision.

LGC: Yes, I think so. I think . women had to do it, I think so. I de finitely think so.

SS: It wouldn't be something that the husband and wife would sit down over supper and just have a big discussion about?

LGC: No. I think not. I think not.

SS: Then it was really as the women'fs feminist movement would say was ta king control of your own body.

LGC: Yes, that's right. Yes, I think that's right. I'm sure of that.

SS: Now one more thing; the difference between a farm family again and these middle class town families we were talking about before: Would these middle class ladies in Moscow in the teens and twenties, were they more likely to have smaller families than the country people?

LGC: That's right. They seemed to have a smaller family^,

SS: Do you think that was their own way of these women to trying to carve out more independence for themselves and to have more freedom?

LGC: I think so, I think maybe. And they had intended all along to have fewer children. And I don't know that they were more intelligent. Maybe they had access to more knowledge. They got out among 'em, they talked together. And over the years there were certain doctors who would perform abortions, you know. And they were knowledgeable of where to go to find these doctors. But rural women didn't have access to that kind of information. And I think that that's right.

SS: And this would probably be true of Moscow as compared to a small town like Troy or Genesee or Kendrick, would be more like the country? Right?

LGC: Yes.

SS: Bigger families.

LGC: Yes, that's right.

SS: But ink city like Moscow, they were more exposed to these newer cur rents.

LGC: That's right. To these newer thoughts. I think that's true. I think that's very true. But the Depression wasn't all bad, you see because out of it grew some forward looking things. Hot lunch program for the children. Milk for every child. Free innoculations. Smaller families Planned parenthood. All those things grew out of the great necessity and the dire need of those depression years.

SS: Do you feel that the Depression directly made a lot of people decide not to have big families?

LGC: Oh, yes, I think so. They couldn't support the ones they had

SS: Do you feel that the Depression directly made a-

LGC: A lot of changes. Oh, yes, I think so, definitely. They couldn't sup port the ones they had, you know. And I think it just drove them to see the great necessity of doing these things. I'm sure that's right.

SS: Do you think there was much of a realization- growing realization that as women- as people ought to have more of a life of their own indepen dent of just families.

LGC: Yes, I think so. I think with the reading. With the cultural revolu tion more girls went to college, for instance and they come back with other thoughts. More girls right along were going to college all the time. And studied sociology and you heard about limiting families and you heard about taking care of the ones you had, about the psycholo gical care and about self-fulfillment and all that sort of thing. And I think those all had their effect. I'm sure they did.

SS: When we talked about affection in families Was the dispenser of affection in the family?

LGC: Yes, I do. I think it was the mother.

SS: In country and town both?

LGC: Oh, I do, I think so. I think the mother was the one they went to to talk to and.comfort when they cut their finger and stubbed their toe. I think it was the mothers they went to. It was the mothers that put them to bed and dressed them; gave them their baths and took care of them when they were sick. I think so.

SS: Do you think that the father in those days was a remote figure for his children?

LGC: Well, more so than now, I think. There wasn't that camaraderie near so much. He was more the ruler of the house. He was the man you plea sed. He was the breadwinner. I think so.

SS: I have read that- people saying that fathers tended to be closer to their daughters than to their sons. That fathers were really kind ofyou know, prized- not that they didn't prize their sons, but there was a closer relationship between father and daughter that encouraged the daughters when they grew up to be more independent. Now I wonder if that's true. I don't know if it was coming from the father or whether it was really coming from the mother.

LGC: I don't think I can answer that. I just don't know. I didn't know enough people well enough. In our family I think my father had great pride in the sons. You were supposed to have sons to carry on the name. That's the old country idea. The sons inherited. It was for sons. And that of course, is an old country concept about - the sons will carry on the name. So many sons and don't mention the daughters, you know. And many of the people I knew lived around us were from the old countries. And I think most of them had more of that feeling.

SS: Yes, I think this is being presented as more of a city- as a town kind of thing.

LGC: Yes. Where the fathers babied the daughters. The daughters were sweet. Yes. I think maybe in the cities that might be, but in the country the boys- the boys were an advantage, they were so many hired helpthey were going to have help on the farm to do the work. The girls would not be much help. They would marry some other man, but.these boys were to come up. We have to get more land for them. We've got to buy that other 160. I have so many boys coming up. There was lots of that went on. Lots of talk about, we must acquire land for the sake of our sons, you know. Lots of that

SS: Yet, when you look at these large families and the very limited amount of land, there must have been an awful lot of kids had to leave when they grew up, because they couldn't be supported.

LGC: They couldn't be supported. didn't want to stay. The farm life had been hard on them and a lot of them wanted to go to something else.

SS: You mean, these boys having to work in the fields?

LGC: Yes, the boys had to work in the fields. It had been hard work. And a lot of them didn't want anymore of it.

SS: So there probably must have been many more of your generation left than stayed. Wouldn't you say?

LGC: Yes, I think so. And then especially when the Depression hit and the prices were so bad nobody wanted to farm. Then the war came on and entered a new phase entirely, you see. So many opportunities in all directions were opened up. And the kids went away to battle and lear ned other things and didn't want to go back to farm life.

SS: Do you think the First World War had that effect too?

LGC: Yes, I do. I think so, too. I think the First World War.

SS: So it meant that having been in the army that the boys saw other pos sibilities?

LGC: That's right. Other ways of life.

SS: Which

LGC: Yes, that's right. You know, "How are they gonna keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paree?" But there was that feeling, that there was more liberty, more freedom, more adventure, more wonderful things than following plows and the crops. Yes lot of 'em didn't want to go back to it, although lots of 'em did.

SS: But then there really wasn't enough opportunities, say in Moscow in business for them.

LGC: Oh, no, no.

SS: They really had to get out,

LGC: They had to get out anyway, yes, that's right, they did. And there were Hny other opportunities open.

SS: Did most of them go to the West Coast?

LGC: Yes, yes.

SS: Rather than East, most of them went to-

LGC: Yes, like California, yes. California drew lots of these young people, And the coast; Seattle, Portland and all up and down, yes.

SS: Or to Spokane?

LGC: Yes. That's right,, the centers. That's right.

SS: It's been a very interesting question to understand the differences between those who left and those who stayed. What would make people decide to leave. The people who left we can't talk to.

LGC: Yes, that's right. The ones that stayed- that's exactly right. Yes.

SS: I wonder what some of the differences would be?

LGC: Well, some of them just loved the land and loved the farming and loved the rotation of the crops and the coming of the seasons, you know. And they wouldn't have done anything else. But the bad years, the Depression is really what took them off the farms, I think. They thought that just over the hill was something better. Although the boys that came out here, like from the CC camps from New York, my, they would loved to have all stayed if they could. So that's the way it goes.

SS: One thing about the First World War: I've heard that there was quite a bit of anti-German sentiment during the war.

LGC: Oh, yes, very much. Yes.

SS: What have you heard about that, or seen during that time?

LGC: Yes, I saw- there were some boys that got draft deferments for this and that other reason, and they rode 'em on a rail and they took off their clothes and tarred and feathered some of them. Some of them as old men dying still resented and remembered those violent episodes. I remember when they mashed out store windows at Uniontownbhat said Kraut on it. And Kraut on the window. Nobody would eat kraut. Throw you know, the Kraut out, they were Germans. And all that was pretty. I remember the Williamson store, he went in and gathered up every thing that was made in Germany, and had a big bonfire in the mid dle of the street, you know. Although he had many good German friends all over the county that had helped make him rich. And there was all that went on, you know. And some people changed their name. And if it was a German name- we'll just change our name. We don't want any thing to do with it. And there was lots of that, just that kind of hysteria going on .

SS: This deferment business- this was German boys who didn't have to go into the army?

LGC: That's right. Some of them said their fathers were sick and dying, and their father had so much land they had to stay home and farm it for them and they got they called them farm deferments. And a lot of those men felt badly later because they didn't share in the great ad venture that the other boys had had. And there was great resentment against them. A lot of them stayed home and married the belle of the town, you know and didn't have to go to war and all the other kids re sented that and held it against them even after they got to be old men they still remembered, you hadn't gone and you chickened out.

SS: But this actual beating up of these fellows? Did that actually happen?

LGC: Oh, yes. That happened here, too, yes.

SS: Would it be mostly in the country or Moscow?

LGC: I think the Saturday night businesses, you know and like at the dances they'd get a few drinks and then they were looking for fights, you know. hearing

SS: Can you actually remember of anyone tarred and feathered here?

LGC: Yes. I know of one case where they tarred and feathered and rode him in life on the rail.. And he said if he had it to do over again, he would have gone, he would have been glad to have gone but his father- he was the only boy among a big bunch of girls, and the father and mother both cried so and took on so, that he asked for a farm deferment although he was able.

SS: Did that happen in Moscow or Genesee?

LGC: Well, the folks lived about half way in between- out. And the Moscow board is what gave him the deferment.. But the man was sorry all his life for it.

SS: But he was German?

LGC: Yes. He was of German descent.

SS: It is my impression of it that German people were expected to be superpatriotic, more so than anyone else.

LGC: Yes, some of them had to bend over backwards. In fact, when they sold war bonds they'd go out to these German farmers, you know, and just put them right on the spot. They'd made fortunes and "We expect you to buy so many thousand dollars worth of war bonds." And they did. Lots of them went all out, as you say, to prove their patriotism. They didn't want anything to do with this war. But a lot of them werethey'd been brought up, this was their home country, this was just a temporary thing, but their home and their loyalty were back in Germany. And there was some of that alright. But they were among the older people.

SS: They were actually- do you think some of them actually hoped to go Germany some day?

LGC: I think maybe they had planned maybe to go back some day. But they had closer ties. They were older people. The old folks that had come maybe half grown from Germany. And they always thought, "We'll make a fortune in America and go back to the homeland." And that was hard on them.

SS: Well, this young man who was tarred and feathered- how could he have ever like those people that had done that? I mean, if it was me, I think I would have always-

LGC: Resented it. Well, didn't..

SS: Were these people that he knew?

LGC: Yes, oh, yes. Boys he'd grown up with. Yes. Yes. Of course there'd been some drinking too you know. And in the heat of it all, you know how those things go. He didn't live to be a very old man, so it was all answered for him then. It was all answered, but I do know that he told me in later life that he was sorry that he hadn't gone. He said, "I missed that wonderful experience. I wouldn't have done it myself but my folks- my father and my mother both were so set."

SS: Do you think they beat him up too as well as tarred and feathered him?

LGC: Well, -

SS: It really doesn't matter.

LGC: I don't think it matters. I don't really remember. But anyway they roughed him up an awful lot and it was bad and they did put the tar and feathers on and they rode him on a rail.

SS: That's the classic-

LGC: Yeah, example.

SS: By the way, just one more thing that this reminds me of The Ku Klux Klan.

LGC: Yes, we had a Ku Klux Klan here in Moscow at one time. And they were out burning crosses even and going around in sheets and pillow slips. And it never lasted very long. And of course, it was against the Catholies and not against the Negroes.. The Ku Klux Klan was an anti-Ca tholic group. And I think that the people who belonged were not very high grade intelligence. Not very^intelligent. And they did have a Ku Klux Klan going around here for a while.

SS: This anti-Catholic feeling- would they burn crosses at people's homes who were Catholic? Would that be the type of thing they would do?

LGC: I think they were going up on Moscow Mountain to burn them as I re member it. Go up on Moscow Mountain so you could see it. And some of said they wouldn't let 'em go because they'd set the trees on fire. But they were out marching around in white sheets and pillow slips. Crazy!

SS: What time was it in years? I've heard it was the early ;20's. Does that sound right to you?

LGC: Yes, I'd say it was the early '20's. Yes, the early '20's. '22.

SS: How did people react to them? Do you think that some were scared by them?

LGC: Well, I certainly wasn't. I took a look at the kind of people that belonged and I thought, "Just how stupid can you get?"

SS: It was more or less known who belonged?

LGC: Oh, it was more or less known, sure, and they hand out these little anti-Catholic books and they were passing them around and just a lot of hocus-pocus, you know. Just ridiculous. And all you had to do was take a look at the kind of people that belonged to it and you knew it wasn't very important.

SS: Were many of the people from the South who belonged?

LGC: Oh, I don't know. All the ones I knew—

SS: Because the Klan did start in the South and I just wondered whether it was the same organization here.

LGC: It wasn't against the colored people at all, it was just against the Catholics. But there were magazines published even, that came from some headquarters in the East, anti-Catholic things. I remember once they had some kind of a nun- escaped from a convent and she was going to tell all. And one of the churches sponsored her and of all disgus ting, revolting things. You could tell the woman was mentally deran ged. She just went on and on about the goings on. And there were a lot of men standing around there guarding it and someone said to me, "oh, those are Ku Klux Klan members. They've come here to protect her so she can get up and talk." I certainly had no part in that and didn't want any part. I did happen to go with some women to hear this woman that night. I took some old lady that wanted to go hear all about it, you know.

SS: Sensational.

LGC: Sensational. Heavens, just disgusting. She hardly opened her mouth when I thought, "She's a psycopath of some kind."

SS: Do you think that the Catholics were relatively separate from the rest of the town in Moscow in those days?

LGC: No, I don't think they could have driven a wedge in any way. Although I was brought up in this family where we had such great respect for religious tolerance. And my father had come from just out of Belfast And he'd heard that all his life, the trouble and he said it was just nothing but a source of trouble. We all worship the same God and some of our neighbors were Catholics and very good friends, the first to come and help you, you know. And we were so very friendly. Good Catholic neighbors.

SS: In Moscow you were.

LGC: In Moscow I was still just as friendly with the little girls that came down from the convent. I thought they had better manners and were better trained. And I never have had any feeling at all myself. But I think maybe there were some, I think there were some ths.t- "Oh, my, they were Catholics." And even in high school, the kids that came over from the convent high school to the Moscow Public School, because it was broader and more kids there. Some people had a- some of the other girls in the school would say, "Well, if you're real stupid, you have to go to the convent, but the smarter ones go to the Moscow High School." And it was so unkind. It had nothing to do with it.

SS: Do you know why they didn't like Catholics then, or what the reasons they gave?

LGC: No.

SS: Was it the Pope that they objected to?

LGC: I really don't know.

SS: One more controversial group that the Klan reminds me of, and that is not a group that had anything in common with them was the IWWs.

LGC: Yes.

SS: And what I want to ask you about; in the lumber country the IWWs had a pretty good reputation among a great many people having improved the conditions. But the view from Moscow was quite the opposite.

LCG: Yes.

SS: I understand. They were really disliked up there very much.

LGC: Yes, They had no part with it. My husband's people here ran a thre shing machine. The Snows where I lived and taught school for four years, they ran a threshing machine and they had to be awfully careful who they hired. They had IWWs and they called them Wobblies, and they would throw a bomb into the machine, into the workings and blow up the machines that summer. That was '22, I think, the summer.

SS: Was that real as a danger or was it something-

LGC: They did it a couple of times, yes they did it here on the Clyde farm.

SS: The IWWs did?

LGC: Yes. They thre^one in and it went off with an explosion. Didn't blow the whole thing to pieces, but it did explode in the machine.

SS: They were sure that it was IWWs that did it?

LGC: Yes.

SS: And not just a smut fire?

LGC: No, they said that this was IWWs. One of the boys got sick here and he was a card carrying IWW, and the men took him to the hospital and so on and took care of him, but he carried one of those blackjacks, with the brass ball on the end, he carried that an IWW card and they were to notify IWWs. And there were a couple of others that were. And of course, they strove for shorter hours, and you know, the far mers were noted for getting up at daylight and working by the lantern til midnight. And they fell in disrepute in these communities because of the violent way. Had it just been, "We want shorter hours." And that sort of thing. Better food. And they had such wonderful food. All these women were super cooks and they.each one outdid the other trying to get the nicest meals in the world for them. So they couldn't complain about the food.

SS: I think it was more in the lumber camps they were complaining about the food.

LGC: Yes. But they did complain about the long hours. And of course, har vest is the time when they have to work long hours to save the crop. So there was certainly two sides. The farmers were very resentful of anybody that wasn't willing to go out and put everything into it for the short harvest season.

SS: They didn't feel that the IWWs were shirkers when they worked, or did they?

LGC: No. They just wanted to quit too early. They wanted to quit too early and not begin - they wanted shorter days.

SS: So they found it difficult to hire without hiring IWWs? I mean, there were so many of the hands- the traveling people were.

LGC: That's right. Lots of the traveling people that came through were. And there was a feeling on the part of the farmers of resentment. But I think once again, that was a good thing. Because it got new ways - combines and tractors where you didn't need these great crews of men. It got so one man could farm half the country and they didn't need all this great army of men to work for them.

SS: But you feel sure from what the Clydes said that they had no doubt that it was actually set by the IWWs?

LGC: Yes. They thought that this one explosion was set by the IWWs.

SS: Did they know who did it?

LGC: Yes, I think they thought this man that later got sick and they had to card take him that was the carrying man, they that he was kind of a leader.

SS: They actually found—

LGC: Yes, they found his card in his pocket.

SS: But I mean in the machine- they found the scrap.

LGC: Yes, there was evidence of something being thrown in. Yeah.

SS: And this was about '22? Yes, '22, around in there. After the First World War, probably '22, '23.

SS: The attitude towards these migratory workers that came through: What did the farmers really think?

LGC: Well, they were all- the farmers were just hard working people them selves. And in those days the formula was for everybody- if you worked hard, you mafce a lot of money and you could have all these things see. There was never any idea of asking for government subsidies and that sort of thing. You got out and you earned it yourself. If you wanted your children to be educated and have things, there was nothing to do but you worked like that. Get up early and work late. And they couldn't see the other person's side of it. They were willing to do it, because it was their bread and butter on the line; their farms on the line. But they expected the men to do it and that's where the trouble came. I cooked for the Snow boys when one noon all the men lined up outside and after dinner, they ate a nice dinner first, then they all lined up and they weren't going to go back to the field, they were on strike. And it took quite a lot of negotiating out there to get 'em back. And it was getting late in the harvest season and there was just nothing to do but meet whatever demand there was. And it was met and they negotiated and got it done.

SS: Do you know how much they negotiated for?

LGC: Oh, probably wasn't over fifty cents or a dollar a day. So it wasn't so much as all that. But anyway it was all settled.

SS: Was one man their spokesman?

LGC: Yes, they had one man that talked for them.

SS: Can't imagine it created goodwill between them.

LGC: No, and when it didn't really form an adventure when all the neigh bors came in and did each others crops- "We'll do this one first. And here's old Mr. so-and-so, he needs the money, we'll go to him next. But when they started having to go out and hire outsiders; strangers that came into the country, that's what took the fun and the joy out of it.

SS: Why did they have to go to outsiders? What happened that they couldn't use just local people anymore?

LGC: Well, I imagine that over the years the kids had grown up and gone to that First World War. Lot of them didn't come back to the farms. There weren't big families. And then as the farmers got to farming, they had other ways of combining- of threshing. The Clydes had their th reshing right here and Snows next door they had their threshing machine. Each one had their own.

SS: Had their own threshing machine?

LGC: Yes. Had their own threshing machines. And so many people with five or six hundred acres- each one had his own threshing machine, instead of all going together and hav ing twenty-two headerboxes and everybody doing this one and that. Each one was doing his own thing.

SS: Then they had to get outside help.

LGC: Then they had to get outside help.

SS: Were they still steam threshers at that time?

LGC: Yes. They were steam threshers.

SS: And they had the long belt between?

LGC: Yes, they had the belt.

SS: I wonder why they decided to get their own instead of- Didn't it work pretty well?

LGC: Yes, it work when they went together, it did. Well, I think they had such long- they would start early like down toward the rim and come on up. As each farm expanded and got more land then they needed thre shing machines. Instead of this man and that man each owning 160, here would be one man with 500 acres and the next one with 5 and the next one with five and if you had 500 acres, you almost had to go get your own threshing machine to get it cut. I think that was probably the way of it. But that's the way I remember the IWW deal. I just re member that one summer.

SS: That year of the strike is that the same summer?

LGC: Yes, it was the same summer, about '22 and '23, those were the years. And these men, a lot of them had come from Colfax. Colfax is a little earlier harvest field than here and they'd gotten men that had come there and these men had hired them from all up in town; transients that had come in looking for harvest jobs and brought them out. And the men on the Snow machine knew the men here on the Clyde machine- they had known each other before.

SS: Did they both strike?

LGC: Well, I don't think these folks struck, they just tried to blow up the machine that day. And then one of them got so sick and in this process of identifying him and trying to get word to his relatives and so on, they had to go through his pockets, and they found he was an IWW and that he had this blackjack andjie had come equippd for trouble. 8S: Where did most of these fellows come from? These itinerant guys that were working in the harvest? Did you know where they were from?

LGC: I really dont' know. I don't know where. I never did know where they came from. There were very few local people- there were two or three local men from town on the crew, but once again, they knew the Clydes, they knew the Snows and they went right on with the work and they tried to hold the thing together because they were personal friends, and men who knew them. And men that were going to have to go on living in the community, too. But these others were transients who had come in and were just waiting for harvest jobs to open. They had put in time over at Colfax and wandered over here just a little later.

SS: After, what happened? Did they have to still keep going to out siders to thresh?

LGC: Yes, quite a while. There was quite a little of that around. But then they started in going into combines. About '24 and '25 everybody was buying combines, and didn't need so many men, see. Even back in '22 Snows had had a horse drawn combine. They got rid of it. But then they got more horse drawn combines and then pretty soon there were tra ctor drawn combines. And then pretty soon they were selfpropelled. But all this trouble with the IWWs helped to hurry up the getting of the combines into the field. It hurried it. They figured it was the only way to relieve the labor problem was to get combines that they could run them in their own family. So I think that's the way that worked. And then of course, in '29 came the Depression, and that was a new ball of wax.